1 Thessalonians first?

[DCHindley]

Bernard,

Would you really place Hebrews so early? It is actually rather sophisticated. To me, it seems to have been created to tie up the loose ends caused by the rough hewn Christology of (OK, added to) the other 13 letters. You do know that in the manuscript tradition Hebrews is sometimes placed here, sometimes there? It is as if it was some latecomer trying to find a place to fit in with the rest of the crowd.

As for the others, are you basing your dating decisions on their relation to one another, to Acts, to historical allusions, or one or more of the above? Where is Ephesians in this mix?

Comparing the related content:

Eph 3:2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you,	Col 1:25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known,
3:3 [how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly].
3:4 [When you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ],	1:26a the mystery
3:5a which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations	1:26b hidden for ages and generations
3:5b as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;	1:26c but now made manifest to his saints.
3:6 that is, how the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise [in Christ Jesus] through the good news. --	1:27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, [which is Christ in you], the hope of glory.
4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.	2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
4:15a Rather, speaking the truth in love,
4;15b we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, [into Christ],	2:19a and not holding fast to the Head,
4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.	2:19b from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
4:22 Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts,	3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old nature with its practices
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
24 and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.	10 and have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
5:22 Wives, be subject to your husbands, [as to the Lord].	3:18 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in (the) LORD.
23 [For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands].
25a Husbands, love your wives,	19a Husbands, love your wives,
25b [as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28a Even so husbands should love their wives]
28b as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.	19b and do not be harsh with them.
29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, [as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body]. 31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” (Gen 2:24)
32 [This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; 33 however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband].
6:1 Children, obey your parents in (the) LORD, for this is right.	3:20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases (the) LORD.
2 "Honor your father and mother" (this is the first commandment with a promise),
3a "that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth." (Ex 20:12b)
3b Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger,	21 Fathers, do not provoke your children,.lest they become discouraged
4 but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of (the) LORD.
5a Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters,	22a Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters,
5b with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, [as to Christ];
6a not in the way of eye-service, as men-pleasers,	22b not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers,
6b but as servants [of Christ], doing the will of God from the soul,	22c but in singleness of heart, fearing (the) LORD.
7 rendering service with a good will as to the master and not to men,	23 Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the master and not men,
8 knowing that whatever good any one does, he will receive the same again from (the) LORD,	24a knowing that from (the) LORD you will receive the inheritance as your reward;
whether he is a slave or free.
	24b [you are serving the Lord Christ].
	25a For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done,
(See 9c)	25b and there is no partiality.
9a Masters, do the same to them, and forbear threatening,	4:1a Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly,
9b knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven,	4:1b knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.
9c and that there is no partiality with him.	(See 25b)
6:21 Now that you also may know how I am and what I am doing, Tychicus the beloved brother and faithful minister in (the) LORD will tell you everything.	4:7 Tychicus will tell you all about my affairs; he is a beloved brother and faithful minister and fellow servant in (the) LORD.
6:22 I have sent him to you for this very purpose, that you may know how we are, and that he may encourage your hearts.	4:8 I have sent him to you for this very purpose, that you may know how we are and that he may encourage your hearts,

The red highlighted text is stuff I have identified as overlaid Christology. Most all of it is in Ephesians, but a little is found in Colossians. It is almost as if they were edited by Christ believing redactor(s) separately, and not one redacted version transformed into another. That still means there were two versions of this letter floating about. However, the words "the mystery" were incorporated into an interpolation in Eph 3:4 but not in Col 1:26a, tells me that Colossians contains the probably original wording of these twin letters.

DCH

My dating:

1 Thessalonians 50-51
1 Corinthians (3 parts) 53-55 (earliest to latest)
Hebrews (not by Paul) 54
2 Corinthians (3 parts) 55-57(earliest to latest)
Philippians (3 parts) 53/54-58 (earliest to latest)
Philemon 57
Galatians 57-58
Romans 58

Colossians (not by Paul), around 65
James (not by James) 60-65
Mark's gospel (anonymous) 70-71
Q compiled around 80
1 Clement (possibly by Clement of Rome), around 80

That's it for known Christian literature written before (about) 80.

Cordially, Bernard

[Peter Kirby]

If the letters are authentic, Paul seems to have a serious operation going in terms of gathering funds from the people. This issue itself is addressed in 1 Cor 9. Let's suppose something like 5-10 denarii per household over 1000 households per year. Something on this order would start to cover the costs of his travel and letter-writing.

That puts a whole new light on the idea that he was raising money for the poor in Jerusalem, doesn't it? You can see behind Galatians that Peter was okay with Paul making a business out of all this as long as he was cut into the action. Based on the fact that the collection for Jerusalem always lies in the future, that promise may have been perpetually delayed. (To cover the truth of how little he could offer Jerusalem?)

On the other hand, while this seems to be a possible scenario, it is also quite easy to see that (1) the second century church would have more resources than the mid-1st century church and (2) one-time composition of a corpus of texts is a more affordable project than the actual purported apostle Paul. Which is basically where this thread has been pointing for the most part (hence, why I wanted to offer the counterpoint above that a truly spectacular fundraiser of a Paul is, perhaps, possible).

[Tenorikuma]

That's pretty interesting, DCH.

[Peter Kirby]

Dinari are often estimated as a day's pay for an unskilled laborer, somewhere from $20-$60 in current money. This gives us a cost of $6,000-$36,000, perhaps. a year's wages for the average manual worker back then. This would seem to eliminate over 98% of the Roman population who could never have afforded to make such a trip.

I'd try to retroject a little to a time when we were mostly agrarian (not urban, not industrialized). In 1840 USA, a man could generally earn 50 cents a day ($12/month) on a farm, while a woman could earn 30-50 cents a day in a textile factory. Adjusting for inflation, that'd buy $11.33 of goods in today's money. Basically a common laborer in the USA gets 6-8 times as much stuff for his work as he did in 1840.

I've seen written that some scholars believe a denarius for a day's work in the 1st century was optimistic and that many made a half-denarius (unless they had a special skill as, e.g., a scribe did). Something worth noting, notwithstanding the gospel story.

I'd also guess that in 1840 America people were earning quite a bit more stuff than in first century Rome. Let's be simple and conservative and say twice as much. That would mean that the day laborer would earn about $5 in stuff when measured in today's money. That seems realistic (actually, optimistic, but still possible). It's enough to buy food with some left over. It might have actually been $2.50 or $1 but at least it's closer to the truth at $5 of stuff for a half-denarius.

So if the cost were 300-600 coins and if a coin would buy $10 in stuff (two days of work), then that trip had the value of $3,000 - $6,000. But you have to picture the Roman empire as being like a country where a lot of people were making only $2-10 per day (not that hard really is it...).

The point that it would be entirely beyond the means of most people does stand. Unless that person became a pilgrim and walked the whole way, around the Adriatic. Then they'd just have to figure out food somehow (buying, carrying, foraging, and/or begging).

[Bernard Muller]

To DCH,
Hi, I am trying to answer your question about Ephesians and Colossians, but I do not have much time, neither tomorrow. However I'll make a point to eventually explain myself about Hebrews later.
I take the author of Ephesians had full knowledge of Colossians (and likely other Pauline epistles). As you noticed, some key points or wording from Colossians reappear in Ephesians. Of course the author of the later epistle (around 100-120?) was at liberty to change, delete, and elaborate from Colossians, and above all, add up update to address the issues of the day and evolution in the christology/theology. And I think Ephesians was addressed initially to the same Colossians (or rather their descendants and new converts more than a generation after Colossians was written).
I did not spend much time studying Ephesians, because not being by Paul, it has little interest for me.

As for Hebrews, just a few words: I take Hebrews was written in 54, by Apollos of Alexandria, to the Christians of Corinth, at a time when Paul could not explain yet "Christ Crucified" and its relationship with salvation and just making sense. Apollos took his ideas from some passages of Philo of Alexandria's books (Son of God, First born, the Word, Second deity, sacrifice for atonement of sins, imitating the way of his Father, etc.) and put it on Jesus "Christ crucified" and allegedly alive in heaven.

I explained in details the start of Christianity (after Jesus' crucifixion) on this webpage: http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3x.html with towards the end, the important role of the author of Hebrews played in it. Actually, I take Apollos as the the one who put together (thanks to out-of-context quotes from the OT) an all-encompassing christology, with Hebrews the mother lode of Gentile Christian beliefs (gentile despite the many OT quotes and the title given later). Paul eventually adopted most of them, sometimes reluctantly (that is with delays). However, the authors of the gospels (except for "John") did not necessarily accepted all of them.

These conclusions are the results of years of independent personal research, with a book-sized website explaining my reconstruction from A to Z.

Cordially, Bernard

[Bernard Muller]

Hi Peter,
I'll try to answer you in the next few days. Of course, everything is explained on my website about the collection, and how long it took, because of Paul's different relationship with his converts in Corinth along the years (52 to 58).
Everything make a lot of sense once it is understood the canonical Corinthians epistles are the product of 3 letters combined into one for each, according to these criteria:
http://historical-jesus.info/appp.html#corinth1
http://historical-jesus.info/appp.html#corinth2

More later,
Cordially, Bernard

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi Arnoldo,

From Plautus, Menaechmi, Act V, Sc. 4.

Messenio, a slave, soliloquizes: Well, this is the proof of a good servant: he must take care of his master's business, look after it, arrange it, think about it; when his master is away, take care of it diligently just as much as if his master were present, or be even more careful. He must take more care of his back than his appetite, his legs than his stomach---if he's got a good heart. Just let him think what those good-for-nothings get from their masters---lazy, worthless fellows that they are. Stripes, fetters, the mill, weariness, hunger, bitter cold---fine pay for idleness. That's what I'm mightily afraid of. Surely, then, it's much better to be good than to be bad. I don't mind tongue lashings, but I do hate real floggings. I'd rather eat meal somebody else grinds, than eat what I grind myself. So I just obey what my master bids me; and I execute orders carefully and diligently. My obedience, I think, is such as is most for the profit of my back. And it surely does pay! Let others do just as they think it worth while. I'll be just where I ought to be. If I stick to that, I'll avoid blunders; and I needn't be much afraid if I'm ready for my master, come what may. The time's pretty close when for this service of mine, my master will give his reward.

"Deacon" (Slave) is given a positive connotation in Christian literature. This is possibly to attract slaves into the religion. Slaves were badly treated and abused. If Christians treated them this way, they would not want to be Christians. Honoring the service of slaves was a great way to attract slaves to do all the dirty work that needed to be done in a Christian Church.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Origen of Alexandria's commentary on Romans 16:1-2 states the following concering Phoebe.

This text teaches with the authority of the Apostle that even women are instituted deacons in the Church. This is the function which was exercised in the church of Cenchreae by Phoebe, who was the object of high praise and recommendation by Paul. He enumerated her outstanding works; she assisted everyone, he said -- i.e., she helped them in their needs -- she also helped me in my needs and my apostolic work with a perfect devotion. I readily compare her action with the hospitality of Lot, who never failed to welcome guests who presented themselves, and thereby deserved one day to grant his hospitality to angels. In the same manner, likewise, Abraham, who always came forward to greet his guests, deserved to have the Lord with his angels visit him and stay under his tent. Also this pious Phoebe, while giving assistance and rendering service to all, deserved to assist and to serve the Apostle himself. And thus this text teaches at the same time two things: that there are, as we have already said, women deacons in the Church, and that women, who have given assistance to so many people and who by their good works deserve to be praised by the Apostle, ought to be accepted in the diaconate. He also exhorted that those who are active in good works in the Church receive likewise in return from their brethren consideration and be treated with honor, in whatever manner is necessary, even in material services.
http://www.theotrek.org/resources/Plamp ... htm#Origen

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi Peter,

Yes, it is always hard to compare economics of one era to another. Prices of different things are always fluctuating.
If pay was actually 1/2 denari a day than a 300-600 dinari trip would take 2-4 years of work to pay for, assuming a worker could save every denari s/he earned and did not spend any of it. In any case, as you say, such a trip was well out of reach of the common man. Only the wealthiest men could afford such a trip. A wealthy woman making such a trip becomes even more problematic.
Further, Paul says that he is going to visit the church after going to Jerusalem. From Jerusalem to Rome, the trip is approximately double the distance and almost double the costs. Paul always traveled with companions. It is hard to believe that the Church of Jerusalem was so rich that it could afford the equivalent of tens of thousands of dollars to send Paul on these long trips, especially when 99.9% of the Judean population had not been converted to Christianity. This makes it absurd to believe that this is in any way an authentic letter from Paul to Rome.
It reminds me of those 1950's movies where people would land on Mars or the moon and find a breathable atmosphere. This was bad science. One could get away with such nonsense in a movie back then because only a small percentage of the movie audience knew anything about the atmosphere on Mars or the Moon. Today, the average person knows there is no atmosphere on Mars or the moon. Anybody who knows the costs of Paul's trips must realize that the epistles are bad fiction.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Dinari are often estimated as a day's pay for an unskilled laborer, somewhere from $20-$60 in current money. This gives us a cost of $6,000-$36,000, perhaps. a year's wages for the average manual worker back then. This would seem to eliminate over 98% of the Roman population who could never have afforded to make such a trip.

I'd try to retroject a little to a time when we were mostly agrarian (not urban, not industrialized). In 1840 USA, a man could generally earn 50 cents a day ($12/month) on a farm, while a woman could earn 30-50 cents a day in a textile factory. Adjusting for inflation, that'd buy $11.33 of goods in today's money. Basically a common laborer in the USA gets 6-8 times as much stuff for his work as he did in 1840.

I've seen written that some scholars believe a denarius for a day's work in the 1st century was optimistic and that many made a half-denarius (unless they had a special skill as, e.g., a scribe did). Something worth noting, notwithstanding the gospel story.

I'd also guess that in 1840 America people were earning quite a bit more stuff than in first century Rome. Let's be simple and conservative and say twice as much. That would mean that the day laborer would earn about $5 in stuff when measured in today's money. That seems realistic (actually, optimistic, but still possible). It's enough to buy food with some left over. It might have actually been $2.50 or $1 but at least it's closer to the truth at $5 of stuff for a half-denarius.

So if the cost were 300-600 coins and if a coin would buy $10 in stuff (two days of work), then that trip had the value of $3,000 - $6,000. But you have to picture the Roman empire as being like a country where a lot of people were making only $2-10 per day (not that hard really is it...).

The point that it would be entirely beyond the means of most people does stand. Unless that person became a pilgrim and walked the whole way, around the Adriatic. Then they'd just have to figure out food somehow (buying, carrying, foraging, and/or begging).

[Andrew]

PhilosopherJay said:
...
Today, the average person knows there is no atmosphere on Mars or the moon.
...

I guess I'm above (or below?) average then, because I know there is no atmosphere on the moon and an atmosphere on Mars.

[andrewcriddle]

Bernard,

Would you really place Hebrews so early? It is actually rather sophisticated. To me, it seems to have been created to tie up the loose ends caused by the rough hewn Christology of (OK, added to) the other 13 letters. You do know that in the manuscript tradition Hebrews is sometimes placed here, sometimes there? It is as if it was some latecomer trying to find a place to fit in with the rest of the crowd.

Hebrews was almost certainly known to Clement of Rome. On the traditional dating of Clement to the Corinthians, this requires a date for Hebrews well before the end of the 1st century.

Andrew Criddle