John 20 and 21, and 'the other disciple' whom Jesus loved

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MrMacSon
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John 20 and 21, and 'the other disciple' whom Jesus loved

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There are references to and accounts of 'the other disciple, whom Jesus loved' at the start of John 20, but not again until the end of John 21 -

John 20
1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to 'the other disciple, whom Jesus loved', and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”

3 Peter therefore went out, and 'the other disciple', and were going to the tomb. 4 So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first. 5 And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. 8 Then 'the other disciple', who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead. 10 Then 'the disciples' went away again to their own homes.

A few things transpire in John 20 before the doubting Thomas passage. Then, the last few verses -

Jesus said to him, “[Thomas], because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.


John 21 begins -

John 21
1 After these things Jesus showed Himself again to the disciples at the Sea of Tiberias, and in this way He showed Himself: 2 Simon Peter, Thomas called the Twin, Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and 'two others of His disciples were together'.

They go fishing. They sit down to eat & it recounted that Jesus asks Simon Peter three times if he loves him, starting each time, “Simon, son of Jonah [NU-Text reads John] ..."

John 21
17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of Jonah [NU-Text reads John], do you love Me?”

Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?”

And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.”

Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep. 18 Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish.”

19 And He spoke, signifying by 'what death' he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me.”

20 Then Peter, turning around, saw 'the disciple whom Jesus loved' following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” 21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”

22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”

23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?”

24 This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.

25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.



There are various prophecies given by the risen Jesus in the latter half of John 21.

In v. 19 "signifying by what death he would glorify God" seems slightly ambiguous: it seems to be referring to Jesus saying how Simon Peter would glorify death.

Then v. 20 has Peter seeing 'the disciple whom Jesus loved' following, and asking "who is the one who betrays You?”

That would seem to be a reference to Judas (even though Jesus is supposed to have been resurrected ie. after the betrayal by Judas).


Then v. 21 -

"Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?” "

Then

.
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”

23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?”

24 This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things ...
.


A few have argued that this 'disciple whom Jesus loved' is John eg. -
The disciple whom Jesus loved is John, the son of Zebedee and brother of James.

First, only the Gospel of John mentions the "disciple whom Jesus loved." Second, John 21:2 lets us know who was fishing with Peter: "Simon Peter, Thomas (called Didymus), Nathanael from Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two other disciples were together..." The apostle John was a son of Zebedee (Matthew 4:21). Third, there were three disciples who were especially close to Jesus: Peter, James, and John (Matthew 17:1; Mark 5:37; 14:33; Luke 8:51). The “disciple whom Jesus loved” could not be Peter, as Peter asks Jesus a question in regards to this disciple (John 21:20-21). That leaves us with James or John. Jesus made a statement about the possible "longevity" of the life of the disciple whom He loved in John 21:22. James was the first of the apostles to die (Acts 12:2).

https://www.gotquestions.org/disciple-w ... loved.html

We find all of the references to "the disciple whom Jesus loved" in the book of John (John 13:23, John 19:26, John 20:2 and John 21:7, John 21:20). While the Gospel of John does not specifically identify its author, and "the disciple whom Jesus loved" is nowhere explicitly named in Scripture, the early Christians universally recognize John as the author of the Gospel and "the disciple whom Jesus loved."

https://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/dis ... ed-faq.htm

John 19:25-30
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!" 27 Then He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.

28 After this, Jesus, 6 knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!" 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and a they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Others have proposed this beloved disciple is is has been Lazarus, Mary Magdalene, James, or an ascetic or other sophisticated Jew.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciple_whom_Jesus_loved



Does anyone have a different view? Does the Greek provide further clues?
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: John 20 and 21, and 'the other disciple' whom Jesus loved

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.
12 And [Mary Magdalene] saw two angels in white sitting
.
.
14 ... she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus.
.
.
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!”

She turned and said to Him [in Hebrew], “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).

17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.
.

The reference to 'Rabboni' in v.16 is interesting. It is universally agreed such terminology is post ben Zakkai and "Besides. the presidents of the Sanhedrin no one is called 'Rabban'." -

Sherira Sherira [Gaon's] statement [to Jacob ben Nissim] shows clearly that, at 'the time of Jesus', there were no titles; and Grätz ("Gesch." iv. 431), therefore, regards as anachronisms the title "Rabbi" as given in the gospels to John the Baptist and Jesus ...

[Previously]

The title 'Rabbi' is borne by the sages of Palestine, who were ordained there by the Sanhedrin in accordance with the custom handed down by the elders, and were denominated 'Rabbi,' and received authority to judge penal cases; while 'Rab' is the title of the Babylonian sages, who received their ordination in their colleges. The more ancient generations, however, which were far superior, had no such titles as 'Rabban,' 'Rabbi,' or 'Rab,' for either the Babylonian or Palestinian sages. This is evident from the fact that Hillel I., who came from Babylon, had not the title 'Rabban' prefixed to his name.

"Of the Prophets, also, who were very eminent, it is simply said, 'Haggai the prophet,' etc., 'Ezra did not come up from Babylon,' etc., the title 'Rabban' not being used. Indeed, this title is not met with earlier than the time of the patriarchate. It was first used of Rabban Gamaliel the elder, Rabban Simeon his son, and Rabban Johanan ben Zakkai, all of whom were patriarchs or presidents of the Sanhedrin. The title 'Rabbi,' too, came into vogue among those who received the laying on of hands at this period, as, for instance, Rabbi Zadok, Rabbi Eliezer ben Jacob, and others, and dates from the time of the disciples of Rabban Johanan ben Zakkai downward. Now the order of these titles is as follows: 'Rabbi' is greater than 'Rab'; 'Rabban,' again, is greater than 'Rabbi'; while the simple name is greater than 'Rabban.' Besides the presidents of the Sanhedrin no one is called 'Rabban'. "

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12494-rabbi

The Jewish Encyclopedia notes

A different account of the origin and the signification of the titles is given in the Tosefta to 'Eduyot (end):

.
"He who has disciples and whose disciples again have disciples is called 'Rabbi'; when his disciples are forgotten [i.e., if he is so old that even his immediate disciples belong to the past age] he is called 'Rabban'; and when the disciples of his disciples are also forgotten he is called simply by his own name."
.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12494-rabbi
Perhaps the reference to Jesus being 'Rabbani' here, and Rabbi elsewhere in the NT, are later glosses ...
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Re: John 20 and 21, and 'the other disciple' whom Jesus loved

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MrMacSon wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:07 am Does anyone have a different view? Does the Greek provide further clues?
Bauckham has some relevant chapters worth reading (14, 15, 20 in the first edition).
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Re: John 20 and 21, and 'the other disciple' whom Jesus loved

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MrMacSon wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:07 am Does anyone have a different view? Does the Greek provide further clues?
Roger Parvus - Is Paul the Beloved Disciple?

Twenty years ago the late Michael Goulder wrote an article in which he argued that Paul was the Fourth Gospel’s Beloved Disciple (“An Old Friend Incognito,” Scottish Journal of Theology, 1992, Vol. 45, pp. 487-513). It is no secret that the Fourth Gospel’s Jesus is very different from the Synoptic one. Goulder proposed that its Beloved Disciple too is a very different version of a disciple we all know and love: Paul.

Parvus goes on and discusses also other possibilities
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Re: John 20 and 21, and 'the other disciple' whom Jesus loved

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The Gospel of John is pretty funky with these over layers. Chapter 21 is regarded as an appendix to the Gospel.

My own read agrees that the assessment that the author of Chapter 21, or more accurately the alter-ego of the author embedded in the story and his claim to authority is the beloved disciple. And it was necessary to claim his death was much later than expected because this version of John came out after the supposed author was thought already dead. Verse 20:4 is an example of where this disciple is shown to be very young as Peter legend already contained the idea that he was an old man. Similar claims to connect with the original Apostles and thus authority exist with Mark supposedly a younger companion of Peter and Luke a younger companion of Paul. But the concepts are the same, a younger person who could write at a later date and still have Apostolic Authority.

And IMO this was not the last layer of John. Thomas, the famous Antidocentic layer, was placed on top of the disciple who loved me layer.

My general view of the Gospel is that it was written as an antidote to Matthew and did not in anyway conform with the Synoptic forms, and didn't even use the same list of disciples. There was a story line and then a second layer of commentary which has small subtle theological variance with the story -- these I think formed the original. A 3rd layer attempted to harmonize with the Synoptic and introduced Peter. The 4th layer is the 21st chapter and the beloved disciple. The question for me is are the 3rd and 4th layers together? Possibly, like the 1st and 2nd which fused into the first version of the product, possibly the 3rd and 4th fused together. Finally Thomas layer came together.

The term Rabbi appears to have come about no earlier than the very end of the 1st century, and more probably in the early 2nd century. Give it a generation or so to become widely known in the empire and you arrive at dates no earlier than the 2nd quarter of the 2nd century for Gospel usage, that is after Trajan. This is similar to LXX use of κυρίος for the tetragrammaton which also is not seen until the 2nd century, but the only form the NT knows. These are among the many signals that point toward 2nd century authorship for the Gospels and Paul.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
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Re: John 20 and 21, and 'the other disciple' whom Jesus loved

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pavurcn wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:21 am
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:07 am Does anyone have a different view? Does the Greek provide further clues?
Bauckham has some relevant chapters worth reading (14, 15, 20 in the first edition).
Cheers. Yes, wikipedia alludes to Bauckham's first edition (2008) -
Unknown priest or disciple

Brian J. Capper argues that the Beloved Disciple was a priestly member of a quasimonastic, mystical, and ascetic Jewish aristocracy, located on Jerusalem's prestigious southwest hill, who had hosted Jesus' last supper in that location,[25] citing the scholar D.E.H. Whiteley, who deduced that the Beloved Disciple was the host at the last supper.[26] Capper suggests, to explain the largely distinctive designation of the Beloved Disciple as one loved by Jesus, that the language of 'love' was particularly related to Jewish groups which revealed the distinctive social characteristics of 'virtuoso religion' in ascetic communities.[27] The British scholar Richard Bauckham[28] reaches the similar conclusion that the beloved disciple, who also authored the gospel attributed to John, was probably a literally sophisticated member of the (surprisingly extensive) high priestly family clan.

Gerd Theissen and Annette Merz suggest the testimony may have come from a lesser known disciple, perhaps from Jerusalem.[29]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciple_ ... r_disciple
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Re: John 20 and 21, and 'the other disciple' whom Jesus loved

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:09 am
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:07 am Does anyone have a different view? Does the Greek provide further clues?
Roger Parvus - Is Paul the Beloved Disciple?

Twenty years ago the late Michael Goulder wrote an article in which he argued that Paul was the Fourth Gospel’s Beloved Disciple (“An Old Friend Incognito,” Scottish Journal of Theology, 1992, Vol. 45, pp. 487-513). It is no secret that the Fourth Gospel’s Jesus is very different from the Synoptic one. Goulder proposed that its Beloved Disciple too is a very different version of a disciple we all know and love: Paul.

Parvus goes on and discusses also other possibilities ..
Cheers, Kunigunde. That is interesting, especially in light of Stuarts comment that 'Chapter 21 is regarded as an appendix to the Gospel' and the proposition/s that the Jesus-narrative is shaped by the coming together of two separate groups (a Jewish messianic sect following a Peter, and a Gentile Gnostic sect with Paul at its core)
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Re: John 20 and 21, and 'the other disciple' whom Jesus loved

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Stuart wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:20 pm The term Rabbi appears to have come about no earlier than the very end of the 1st century, and more probably in the early 2nd century. Give it a generation or so to become widely known in the empire and you arrive at dates no earlier than the 2nd quarter of the 2nd century for Gospel usage, that is after Trajan. This is similar to LXX use of κυρίος for the tetragrammaton which also is not seen until the 2nd century, but the only form the NT knows. These are among the many signals that point toward 2nd century authorship for the Gospels and Paul.
I wouldn't be completely sure about that. The term "Rab" is used in Daniel 2:43, 5:11 for a "great one", captain or leader. In 5:11 it's a religious leader. That may be not far away from the use of "Rabbi" in the Gospels.

5:11 There is a man in your kingdom who has the spirit of the holy gods in him. In the time of your father he was found to have insight and intelligence and wisdom like that of the gods. Your father, King Nebuchadnezzar, appointed him chief (רַ֧ב - raḇ) of the magicians, enchanters, astrologers and diviners.

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Re: John 20 and 21, and 'the other disciple' whom Jesus loved

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Stuart wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:20 pm
The Gospel of John is pretty funky with these over layers. Chapter 21 is regarded as an appendix to the Gospel.

My own read agrees that the assessment that the author of Chapter 21, or, more accurately the alter-ego of the author embedded in the story and his claim to authority, is 'the beloved disciple'. And it was necessary to claim his death was much later than expected because this version of John came out after the supposed author was thought already dead. Verse 20:4 is an example of where this disciple is shown to be very young as Peter legend already contained the idea that he was an old man.
Cheers Stuart. I think John 21:20-21 shows where there has been repetition, suggesting splicing of two versions, or a gloss has been added -

20 Then Peter, turning around, saw 'the disciple whom Jesus loved' following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” 21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”

Your comment that "the author of Chapter 21, or, more accurately the alter-ego of the author embedded in the story and his claim to authority, is e 'the beloved disciple' is interesting. That is why some people think it is John, but I also wondered if it is the alter-ego of a later redactor-author.


Stuart wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:20 pm
Similar claims to connect with the original Apostles and thus authority exist with Mark supposedly a younger companion of Peter and Luke a younger companion of Paul. But the concepts are the same, a younger person who could write at a later date and still have Apostolic Authority.

And IMO this was not the last layer of John. Thomas, the famous Antidocentic layer, was placed on top of 'the disciple who loved me' layer.

My general view of the Gospel is that it was written as an antidote to Matthew and did not in anyway conform with the Synoptic forms, and didn't even use the same list of disciples. There was a story line and then a second layer of commentary which has small subtle theological variance with the story -- these I think formed the original. A 3rd layer attempted to harmonize with the Synoptic and introduced Peter1. The 4th layer is the 21st chapter and the beloved disciple. The question for me is are the 3rd and 4th layers together? Possibly, like the 1st and 2nd which fused into the first version of the product, possibly the 3rd and 4th fused together. Finally Thomas layer came together.
  1. Yes, there seems to be (as with the Pauline epistles and Acts), I think, this switching between Peter and Simon Peter.

Stuart wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:20 pm The term Rabbi appears to have come about no earlier than the very end of the 1st century, and more probably in the early 2nd century. Give it a generation or so to become widely known in the empire and you arrive at dates no earlier than the 2nd quarter of the 2nd century for Gospel usage; that is, after Trajan. This is similar to LXX use of κυρίος for the tetragrammaton which also is not seen until the 2nd century, but the only form the NT knows. These are among the many signals that point toward 2nd century authorship for the Gospels and Paul.
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Re: John 20 and 21, and 'the other disciple' whom Jesus loved

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:49 pm
Stuart wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:20 pm The term Rabbi appears to have come about no earlier than the very end of the 1st century, and more probably in the early 2nd century. Give it a generation or so to become widely known in the empire and you arrive at dates no earlier than the 2nd quarter of the 2nd century for Gospel usage, that is after Trajan. This is similar to LXX use of κυρίος for the tetragrammaton which also is not seen until the 2nd century, but the only form the NT knows. These are among the many signals that point toward 2nd century authorship for the Gospels and Paul.
I wouldn't be completely sure about that. The term "Rab" is used in Daniel 2:43, 5:11 for a "great one", captain or leader. In 5:11 it's a religious leader. That may be not far away from the use of "Rabbi" in the Gospels.

5:11 There is a man in your kingdom who has the spirit of the holy gods in him. In the time of your father he was found to have insight and intelligence and wisdom like that of the gods. Your father, King Nebuchadnezzar, appointed him chief (רַ֧ב - raḇ) of the magicians, enchanters, astrologers and diviners.

>>>
Nathan ben Jehiel, in the "'Aruk" (s.v. ), quotes the following passage from the letter addressed by Sherira Gaon to Jacob ben Nissim with regard to the origin and signification of the various titles derived from : "The title 'Rab' is Babylonian ..."

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12494-rabbi
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