Lena Einhorn's ideas

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Lena Einhorn
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by Lena Einhorn » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:06 pm

lsayre wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:55 am
Perhaps Paul is both Jesus and the Egyptian?
Paul, and Jesus, and the Egyptian, and Jesus Barabbas ("Jesus son of the Father"; Matthew 27:16-17)

andrewcriddle
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by andrewcriddle » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:19 am

MrMacSon wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:59 pm
Secret Alias wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:32 pm
You have to find an ancient witness to the time shift in order to take it Really seriously.
An "ancient witness" who stated it overtly? or various less overt things of those times, such as
  • Eusebius reporting the Acts of Pilate dated the crucifixion to the 7th of Tiberius (btw, do you have a citation of two for that?),
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.vi.ix.html
1. The historian already mentioned agrees with the evangelist in regard to the fact that Archelaus succeeded to the government after Herod. He records the manner in which he received the kingdom of the Jews by the will of his father Herod and by the decree of Cæsar Augustus, and how, after he had reigned ten years, he lost his kingdom, and his brothers Philip and Herod the younger, with Lysanias, still ruled their own tetrarchies. The same writer, in the eighteenth book of his Antiquities, says that about the twelfth year of the reign of Tiberius, who had succeeded to the empire after Augustus had ruled fifty-seven years, Pontius Pilate was entrusted with the government of Judea, and that he remained there ten full years, almost until the death of Tiberius.

2. Accordingly the forgery of those who have recently given currency to acts against our Saviour is clearly proved. For the very date given in them shows the falsehood of their fabricators.

3. For the things which they have dared to say concerning the passion of the Saviour are put into the fourth consulship of Tiberius, which occurred in the seventh year of his reign; at which time it is plain that Pilate was not yet ruling in Judea, if the testimony of Josephus is to be believed, who clearly shows in the above-mentioned work that Pilate was made procurator of Judea by Tiberius in the twelfth year of his reign.
Andrew Criddle

perseusomega9
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by perseusomega9 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:13 am

I'm struck by the curious phrase "if Josephus is to be believed"

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Secret Alias
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:03 am

Josephus scholars do not see much difficulty in adapting Josephus's details with the Acts of Pilate. One issue is that Gratus is introduced with a mention of his reign lasting 11 years:
He was now the third Emperor: and he sent Valerius Gratus to be procurator of Judea, and to succeed Annius Rufus. This man deprived Ananus of the High Priesthood; and appointed Ismael, the son of Phabi, to be High Priest. He also deprived him in a little time, and ordained Eleazar, the son of Ananus, who had been High Priest before, to be High Priest. Which office when he had held for a year, Gratus deprived him of it, and gave the High Priesthood to Simon, the son of Camithus. And when he had possessed that dignity no longer than a year, Joseph Caiaphas was made his successor. When Gratus had done these things, he went back to Rome; after he had tarried in Judea eleven years: when Pontius Pilate came as his successor.
Nevertheless the natural flow of Josephus supports or allows for Pilate being installed at least by 19 CE. The story which immediately precedes Pilate in JA is set in 17 CE thus allowing for the introduction of Pilate to be any time after that
5. [A.D. 17.] At this time died Antiochus, the King of Commagene. Whereupon the multitude contended with the nobility: and both sent ambassadors [to Rome.] For the men of power were desirous that their form of government might be changed into that of a [Roman] province: as were the multitude desirous to be under Kings, as their fathers had been. So the senate made a decree, that Germanicus should be sent to settle the affairs of the east. Fortune hereby taking a proper opportunity for depriving him of his life. For when he had been in the east, and settled all affairs there, his life was taken away by the poison which Piso gave him: as hath been related elsewhere.5
The number 11 was likely picked out of thin air by Eusebius or a later editor because Josephus says much later
For although he was Emperour twenty two years, he sent in all but two procurators to govern the nation of the Jews, Gratus; and his successor in the government, Pilate.
All that Josephus says about Gratus is pressed into that paragraph cited at the start. To me the last mention of Gratus in that first paragraph supports the idea he had a short reign
When Gratus had done these things, he went back to Rome .
..
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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MrMacSon
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:04 pm

andrewcriddle wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:19 am
MrMacSon wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:59 pm
Secret Alias wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:32 pm
You have to find an ancient witness to the time shift in order to take it Really seriously.
An "ancient witness" who stated it overtly? or various less overt things of those times, such as
  • Eusebius reporting the Acts of Pilate dated the crucifixion to the 7th of Tiberius (btw, do you have a citation or two for that?),
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.vi.ix.html
1. The historian already mentioned agrees with the evangelist in regard to the fact that Archelaus succeeded to the government after Herod. He records the manner in which he received the kingdom of the Jews by the will of his father Herod and by the decree of Cæsar Augustus, and how, after he had reigned ten years, he lost his kingdom, and his brothers Philip and Herod the younger, with Lysanias, still ruled their own tetrarchies. The same writer, in the eighteenth book of his Antiquities, says that about the twelfth year of the reign of Tiberius, who had succeeded to the empire after Augustus had ruled fifty-seven years, Pontius Pilate was entrusted with the government of Judea, and that he remained there ten full years, almost until the death of Tiberius.

2. Accordingly the forgery of those who have recently given currency to acts against our Saviour is clearly proved. For the very date given in them shows the falsehood of their fabricators.

3. For the things which they have dared to say concerning the passion of the Saviour are put into the fourth consulship of Tiberius, which occurred in the seventh year of his reign; at which time it is plain that Pilate was not yet ruling in Judea, if the testimony of Josephus is to be believed, who clearly shows in the above-mentioned work that Pilate was made procurator of Judea by Tiberius in the twelfth year of his reign.
Andrew Criddle
Cheers Andrew. There's a lot of interesting stuff in the first several chapters of Eusebius' Hist. eccl./ church history.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:06 pm

perseusomega9 wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:13 am
I'm struck by the curious phrase "if Josephus is to be believed"
There's a lot of interesting stuff like that in Eusebius, often related to stuff Origen was commenting on. I will do a post on it sometime.

Giuseppe
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:28 am

Lena had found a list of interesting similarities between Theudas and John the Baptist.

Here i find another striking 'concidence' that may support better his argument:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4757&p=94532#p94532
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Lena Einhorn
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by Lena Einhorn » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:19 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:28 am
Lena had found a list of interesting similarities between Theudas and John the Baptist.

Here i find another striking 'concidence' that may support better his argument:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4757&p=94532#p94532

Really, I start to suspect that John the Baptist was modeled on Theudas. Already Lena Einhorn had introduced that possibility, by listing some similarities.

Here I find another ''coincidence'':

Theudas (/ˈθjuːdəs/; died c. 46 AD) was a Jewish rebel of the 1st century AD. Scholars attribute to his name a Greek etymology[1] possibly meant as “flowing with water”,[2] although with a Hellenist-styled ending.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theudas

If the water was so strictly linked with Theudas (in the his name and in the place of the his apocalyticism, the Jordan river) then ''John the Baptist'' was modeled on Theudas to judaize the Gnostic concept of noûs (the true spiritual baptism).

See also the importance of water in relation to John here.
Giuseppe, that's such a cool observation! Missed that!

Lena Einhorn
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by Lena Einhorn » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:10 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:28 am
Scholars attribute to his name a Greek etymology[1] possibly meant as “flowing with water”,[2] although with a Hellenist-styled ending.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theudas
But I wonder how they trace that. I would have expected the translation of the name, which according to Strongs NT likely is contracted from θεοδωρος, to include "God".

Giuseppe
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:20 am

Lena Einhorn wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:10 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:28 am
Scholars attribute to his name a Greek etymology[1] possibly meant as “flowing with water”,[2] although with a Hellenist-styled ending.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theudas
But I wonder how they trace that. I would have expected the translation of the name, which according to Strongs NT likely is contracted from θεοδωρος, to include "God".
The link above to Wikipedia refers the source of the info.


Also relatively surprising is the name θεοδωρος. Doesn't it mean 'gift of God' ?

Just as Dositheos. Coincidentially (!) a disciple of the Baptizer.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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