Lena Einhorn's ideas

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by MrMacSon » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:21 pm

hakeem wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:05 pm
Lena Einhorn wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:11 pm
... Of course there may be more similarities than two or three. But the question is the strength of the parallels, the uniqueness of the parallels, the strength of the differences, and the pattern of the combined parallels. Or if I may quote myself: "... when evaluating each parallel between the New Testament and Josephus, it has to be looked at with a statistical eye: How many coinciding elements are there for each suggested parallel? How many diverging elements? How unique are the coinciding elements? To what extent do the different parallels form a pattern? And do the diverging elements for each parallel also form a pattern, i.e. do they co-vary?"
Your theory only reinforces the argument that Jesus of the NT was an invented character without a shred of history1. The hypothesis that the historical Jesus was an Egyptian who was alive during the time Felix was governor or procurator of Judea c 52-60 CE means that the entire NT Jesus story is utter fiction1 when it is claimed Jesus of Nazareth was physically crucified under Pilate C 27-37 CE.
1Lena's propositions doesn't necessarily mean the Jesus of the NT is/was "an invented character without a shred of history", nor that he is entirely "utter fiction".

Sure, the Epistle story 'that Paul preached Jesus crucified since the time of Aretas c37-41 CE' would be false. But we know the basis for Paul's stories are flimsy.

hakeem
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by hakeem » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:18 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:21 pm
hakeem wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:05 pm
Lena Einhorn wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:11 pm
... Of course there may be more similarities than two or three. But the question is the strength of the parallels, the uniqueness of the parallels, the strength of the differences, and the pattern of the combined parallels. Or if I may quote myself: "... when evaluating each parallel between the New Testament and Josephus, it has to be looked at with a statistical eye: How many coinciding elements are there for each suggested parallel? How many diverging elements? How unique are the coinciding elements? To what extent do the different parallels form a pattern? And do the diverging elements for each parallel also form a pattern, i.e. do they co-vary?"
Your theory only reinforces the argument that Jesus of the NT was an invented character without a shred of history1. The hypothesis that the historical Jesus was an Egyptian who was alive during the time Felix was governor or procurator of Judea c 52-60 CE means that the entire NT Jesus story is utter fiction1 when it is claimed Jesus of Nazareth was physically crucified under Pilate C 27-37 CE.
1Lena's propositions doesn't necessarily mean the Jesus of the NT is/was "an invented character without a shred of history", nor that he is entirely "utter fiction".

Sure, the Epistle story 'that Paul preached Jesus crucified since the time of Aretas c37-41 CE' would be false. But we know the basis for Paul's stories are flimsy.
Einhorn's Egyptian historical Jesus is a complete rejection of the NT Jesus who was witnessed to have been put on trial, crucified and placed in a tomb under Pilate.

Those who argue for an historical Jesus almost always reject the NT and then proceed to invent their own HJ without any supporting evidence.

But what is interesting is the claim in "Against Heresies" 2.22 attributed Irenaeus that Jesus suffered when he was an old man near the age of fifty which places his Jesus alive near to, if not during, the time of Felix.

It is almost certain that NT Jesus was a non-historical character manufactured from multiple events about many characters not limited to Plutarch, Josephus, Hebrew Scripture, Greek, Jewish and Roman mythology.

Lena Einhorn
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by Lena Einhorn » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:14 am

hakeem wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:18 pm
Do you have any other trial stories that match the Jesus trial in the gospels, including the refusal to say anything as defense?
"The arrest and trial of Paul are almost an exact repeat of what happened to Jesus (before the verdict), albeit spread out over a longer time:
Both Jesus and Paul are arrested after having created a tumult in the Temple in Jerusalem.
Both are taken to the Roman authorities, which – in both instances – do not know what to do with them. The Romans are decidedly unwilling to put either Jesus or Paul on trial.
In both cases, there is mention of not only the meeting with the governor, but also of the governor’s wife.
Both are taunted by a large Jewish mass of people at the time of their arrest.
Both are taken before a Jewish tetrarch.
Both are thrown between Roman authorities, the Sanhedrin and the Jewish royal power. And both are treated in a similar way by the various instances. Even the slap on the face by the high priest, or at any rate the threat of this, is repeated" (The Jesus Mystery, 237-238)

Ulan
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by Ulan » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:15 am

I had just been typing this and leave this here for the moment:

"To add to my last post, I'd like to point out that the parallels to the Egyptian, to Jesus ben Ananias or Simon bar Giora are in no way competing. Quite the opposite: only if you make use of all of them, you get to cover most the gospel Jesus story. Of course, if the goal is to find one and only one correct Jesus in the writings of Josephus, then I can understand the resistance to see that. However, then the story about the Egyptian lacks the power to convince, as it's lacking central elements of the gospel Jesus story.

That said, I have the sneaking suspicion that there is more to the resistance to accept that gap. I remember the older theory about who the gospel Jesus actually is, which only lurks through in the current video by a small hook in form of an Acts 21:38: "Then you are not the Egyptian who some time ago stirred up a revolt and led the four thousand men of the Assassins out into the wilderness?" Or in other words, Paul is probably supposed to fill the gap of death and resurrection here, independently from Josephus. Which is of course more of a conjecture than the parallels with the Egyptian in Josephus. However, I can see how Jesus ben Ananias is perceived as competing parallel here in that case."

@Lena: The post you quoted is mine, not hakeem's.

Of course, the trial of Stephen is even a better parallel to the Jesus trial. We have to be careful here though which of the texts is the source.
Last edited by Ulan on Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lena Einhorn
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by Lena Einhorn » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:19 am

MrMacSon wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:21 pm
Sure, the Epistle story 'that Paul preached Jesus crucified since the time of Aretas c37-41 CE' would be false. But we know the basis for Paul's stories are flimsy.
I address the issue of how Paul would fit into the Time shift in the paper: http://lenaeinhorn.se/wp-content/upload ... .11.25.pdf
pp. 25-28 (incl. figure) "Arguments against a Time shift"

Lena Einhorn
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by Lena Einhorn » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:23 am

Ulan wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:15 am
@Lena: The post you quoted is mine, not hakeem's.
Yes, sorry!

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MrMacSon
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by MrMacSon » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:56 am

Lena Einhorn wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:19 am
MrMacSon wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:21 pm
Sure, the Epistle story 'that Paul preached Jesus crucified since the time of Aretas c37-41 CE' would be false. But we know the basis for Paul's stories are flimsy.
I address the issue of how Paul would fit into the Time shift in the paper: http://lenaeinhorn.se/wp-content/upload ... .11.25.pdf
pp. 25-28 (incl. figure) "Arguments against a Time shift"

Cheers! Yes, the seventeen years where no activity is recorded after Paul's stated conversion - Galatians 1:18 and 2:1 - is interesting, as are the discrepancies between the Pauline epistles and Acts. This is noteworthy -

"... historical people presented by Acts in connection with Paul’s arrest and imprisonment – Felix and Drusilla, Agrippa II and Bernice, Ananias, son of Nebedaios, Festus, the recently disappearing Egyptian, etc. – are portrayed in ways which meld well with the descriptions by Josephus of those same people. Which makes sense, if we are at this stage back to real time."
http://lenaeinhorn.se/wp-content/upload ... .11.25.pdf (p. 27)

And the excerpt you quote in your recent post above, from The Jesus Mystery, pp. 237-238, is also noteworthy.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by MrMacSon » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:04 am

It could throw the cat among the pigeons if it could be shown that the Titus that Paul took along in Gal 2:1 was the Titus (b. 39 AD/CE), even if a young one

Lena Einhorn
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by Lena Einhorn » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:10 am

MrMacSon wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:04 am
It could throw the cat among the pigeons if it could be shown that the Titus that Paul took along in Gal 2:1 was the Titus (b. 39 AD/CE), even if a young one
That would be an interesting one ...

lsayre
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Re: Lena Einhorn's ideas

Post by lsayre » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:55 am

Lena Einhorn wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:14 am
"The arrest and trial of Paul are almost an exact repeat of what happened to Jesus (before the verdict), albeit spread out over a longer time:
Both Jesus and Paul are arrested after having created a tumult in the Temple in Jerusalem.
Both are taken to the Roman authorities, which – in both instances – do not know what to do with them. The Romans are decidedly unwilling to put either Jesus or Paul on trial.
In both cases, there is mention of not only the meeting with the governor, but also of the governor’s wife.
Both are taunted by a large Jewish mass of people at the time of their arrest.
Both are taken before a Jewish tetrarch.
Both are thrown between Roman authorities, the Sanhedrin and the Jewish royal power. And both are treated in a similar way by the various instances. Even the slap on the face by the high priest, or at any rate the threat of this, is repeated" (The Jesus Mystery, 237-238)
And one, Paul, was thought by some to potentially be the Egyptian. I've often suspected Paul to be a divinity figure who was later demoted (similar to John The Baptist's demotion). Perhaps Paul is both Jesus and the Egyptian? Paul's relative lateness on the scene may coincide well with your time shift proposal.

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