Agathobulus, Rheus Agathopus

[Joseph D. L.]

For those much more knowledgeable of Greek than myself.

What does the name Rheus Agathopus mean?

Secondly, is Agathobulus anyway related to Elagabalus, specifically the word gabal?

[Ben C. Smith]

For those much more knowledgeable of Greek than myself.

What does the name Rheus Agathopus mean?

Well, ῥέος [rheus/rheos] = something that flows (like a stream); ἀγαθός [agathos] = good; and πούς [pus/pous] = foot. The ending -ος (from ἀγαθός, nominative singular) is routinely dropped in compounds. Sometimes getting at the roots of names can be tricky, but this one seems delightfully straightforward.

Secondly, is Agathobulus anyway related to Elagabalus, specifically the word gabal?

I do not see how it could be.

ETA: Here are the entries in LSJ for all three components of the name:

ῥέος, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 3Dr(e%2Fos.
ἀγαθός, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... a)gaqo%2Fs.
πούς, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... %3Dpou%2Fs.

The first two definitions listed for ἀγαθός ("well-born, gentle" and "brave, valiant") are more typical of Classical Greek than of later Greek; the third and fourth ("good") are extremely common in the NT (for example), which is why I gave "good" as my definition for it above.

[archibald]

Tangential interjection from an under-informed person:

My actual first name is David. This may 'mean' things that have nothing to do with me, especially if you ask my wife.

Were names in the NT, for example, or as here in early Christianity, given and used for more symbolic or titular reasons? My impression is that 'surnames' (second names or second appelations) were, when the second name was not 'son of someone else's first name' or not a personal name at all but merely 'of somewhere'.

I suppose I am asking 'what's in the name Rheus Agathopus'?

[Ben C. Smith]

Tangential interjection from an under-informed person:

My actual first name is David. This may 'mean' things that have nothing to do with me, especially if you ask my wife.

Were names in the NT, for example, or as here in early Christianity, given and used for more symbolic or titular reasons? My impression is that 'surnames' (second names or second appelations) were, when the second name was not 'son of someone else's first name' or not a personal name at all but merely 'of somewhere'.

I suppose I am asking 'what's in the name Rheus Agathopus'?

My first name is Benjamin. My parents were well aware of its meaning in Hebrew ("son of the right hand") when they bestowed it upon me (at the same time, they were also partly naming me after my great grandfather). That is not the case at all, however, for many boys who receive the name Benjamin. Reasons, then, differ from parent to parent, and etymology or the meaning of the name itself does not always number among those reasons.

My impression overall for Greek names in antiquity is much the same, though I have not looked into the matter thoroughly. Sometimes the etymology matters; often it does not, and the child is named after other family members, after famous people, or just because "Timothy" and "Daphne" were the popular names that year.

Ancient Hebrew names I have looked into a bit more. In NT times there was a handful of masculine names that got used over and over and over again: Simon, John, Judah, Eleazar, Mat(ta)thias, Jonathan, and so on. Most but not all of those names may have carried a certain Hasmonean resonance with them (the six I named just there all rank among the top ten most popular names of the period, and all of them are Hasmonean). Other very popular names, like Hananiah (not to mention Judah, John, and Jonathan, already listed), are theophoric; in those cases maybe the etymology mattered to a lot of parents (and maybe others were just going along with the flow).

The times described in the Hebrew scriptures seem different. On the pages of scripture it seems like virtually every parent had the etymology in mind when he or she named the child. But I am not sure how "real" that effect is; it may just be a storytelling device.

I am sure there is much more to say on this topic, but the above points are the ones I am surest of.

[archibald]

Thx.

[Joseph D. L.]

@Ben C. Smith

Many thanks for your comments. I'll admit that my linking of Agathobulus to Elagabalus was for an idea I had and wanted evidence for. Could the Greek Agathobulus be in anyway derived from or compared to the Semitic Ilāh hag-Gaba? By translation, corruption, wordplay, etc?

I have no etymological or philology training so I'm utterly in the dark. I thank you for your patience.

[Joseph D. L.]

Also:

Well, ῥέος [rheus/rheos] = something that flows (like a stream); ἀγαθός [agathos] = good; and πούς [pus/pous] = foot. The ending -ος (from ἀγαθός, nominative singular) is routinely dropped in compounds. Sometimes getting at the roots of names can be tricky, but this one seems delightfully straightforward.

From a cursory glance this seems to be an honourary title than a name (and if I'm mistaken then please correct me). It could signify that of a messenger, or someone from whom good flows by their foot, i.e. delivering messages of good news.

[Ben C. Smith]

@Ben C. Smith

Many thanks for your comments. I'll admit that my linking of Agathobulus to Elagabalus was for an idea I had and wanted evidence for. Could the Greek Agathobulus be in anyway derived from or compared to the Semitic Ilāh hag-Gaba? By translation, corruption, wordplay, etc?

I have no etymological or philology training so I'm utterly in the dark. I thank you for your patience.

The Greek is too easy to read for Agathobulus (= Αγαθόβουλος/Agathoboulos). The first part is still ἀγαθός ("good"); the second part derives from βουλή, which means "counsel, will, determination, advice," and can also mean counsel's homophone in English, "council." Words which terminate with -βουλος generally have the former cluster as the meaning, so this name would mean something like "good counsel" or "good advice."

So a direct etymological link between Agathobulus and Elagabalus is pretty much impossible. But the ancients did not always play fair with etymology; they made folk etymologies up all the time, just using basic phonics. For example, Jews often selected Greek or Latin names to use in some circles, matching up the sound of the original name with the sound of a proper name in the target language, etymology be damned. Even that sort of connection for Agathobulus and Elagabalus seems unlikely to me, but that is not exactly a field I am overqualified for or anything....

[Ben C. Smith]

Also:

Well, ῥέος [rheus/rheos] = something that flows (like a stream); ἀγαθός [agathos] = good; and πούς [pus/pous] = foot. The ending -ος (from ἀγαθός, nominative singular) is routinely dropped in compounds. Sometimes getting at the roots of names can be tricky, but this one seems delightfully straightforward.

From a cursory glance this seems to be an honourary title than a name (and if I'm mistaken then please correct me). It could signify that of a messenger, or someone from whom good flows by their foot, i.e. delivering messages of good news.

That kind of word play is certainly possible. And ancient people received nicknames all the time for a myriad of different reasons. Cicero was a nickname, for example, from the Latin word for a chickpea, leading scholars to suggest that he had some kind of wart or birthmark which gave him that moniker.

One has to research each name individually, though. Even in English we have solid names, especially surnames, which "mean something" to us if we think about them (Goodenough, for example, or even my own last name, Smith: a respectable medieval profession). I confess I know literally nothing about the name Agathopus except for its appearance in the Ignatian corpus.

[Joseph D. L.]

Also:

Well, ῥέος [rheus/rheos] = something that flows (like a stream); ἀγαθός [agathos] = good; and πούς [pus/pous] = foot. The ending -ος (from ἀγαθός, nominative singular) is routinely dropped in compounds. Sometimes getting at the roots of names can be tricky, but this one seems delightfully straightforward.

From a cursory glance this seems to be an honourary title than a name (and if I'm mistaken then please correct me). It could signify that of a messenger, or someone from whom good flows by their foot, i.e. delivering messages of good news.

That kind of word play is certainly possible. And ancient people received nicknames all the time for a myriad of different reasons. Cicero was a nickname, for example, from the Latin word for a chickpea, leading scholars to suggest that he had some kind of wart or birthmark which gave him that moniker.

One has to research each name individually, though. Even in English we have solid names, especially surnames, which "mean something" to us if we think about them (Goodenough, for example, or even my own last name, Smith: a respectable medieval profession). I confess I know literally nothing about the name Agathopus except for its appearance in the Ignatian corpus.

I think I remember Huller comparing Rheus Agathopus to Hegesippus at one point.

My idea was that Agathobulus was the Cephas figure that appears in the Pauline corpus, and that the original meaning was to liken him to Ilāh hag-Gabal, the Syrian sun god of the mountain. (Rheus Agathopus, obviously being from Syria, would be the closest person of interest, and Parvus even mused over the possibility that Agathobulus and Rheus Agathopus were the same in his book on the Ignatian letters). But for a long time I have believed that Cephas and Cerinthus were likewise the same figure, given how Paul rebukes Cephas for being influenced by the men from James, and Irenaeus' saying that Cerinthus fell in between Marcion and the Ebionites. I also suspect that the mythical account of John fleeing from Cerinthus in Ephesus was based on Peregrinus rejecting Agathobulus, probably in the Antioch region.