I moved this to a new thread. The issue here is Paul’s use of the scriptures and, based on Paul’s letters, do Paul's letters clearly demonstrate a recent death for Jesus Christ.
You know, except for your first paragraph cited below, I’ve seen most of your comments here before viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3769&start=90#p80533 almost word-for-word. And we already discussed most of those arguments for a recent Jesus as found in Paul’s letters. I’m going to leave it at that.
I do want to respond to your comments cited below about Paul’s use of the scriptures. The timing of the death of Jesus as seen by Paul is included in my responses. For my part, I wanted to respond here as promised, but will not be participating in a continued discussion.
After some reflection, I think the phrase that I have come to use out of habit, “deep in the scriptural past” is an over-reach. I think, based on the available evidence, Paul’s characterizations of the events of Jesus is better stated simply as he did, “according to the scriptures”.Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:01 pm I find it very hard to read the Pauline epistles as they stand in such a way as to suggest that, for Paul, the life and death of Jesus took place in the misty past, scriptural or not.
Sure, agreed in principle. But even a death for Jesus post-David leaves nearly all the books of the prophets. Paul seems to have used the scriptures --- in relation to his Jesus --- both as predictions of future events, and as a record of events that had already occurred in the realm of scriptural time.Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:01 pm Not all of scriptural time is open, at any rate; Jesus cannot have preceded Adam (1 Corinthians 15.22, 45), Abraham (Galatians 3.16), Moses (Romans 10.4-5), or David (Romans 1.4), for example
Certainly OT passages that Paul may have found about bringing Gentiles into the fold, and passages he may have found to argue for the parousia, would have been seen as predictions of future events --- events to take place in his own time.
I suspect that without too much looking one could find OT passages written in a past tense that Paul used as future predictions and visa-versa. The scriptures were Paul’s ‘bitch’ --- intended here in a gender-neutral sense of being subject to his will. Paul used and abused the scriptures and twisted them to satisfy his needs.
Paul’s system has flaws in logic, no such system is perfect. But Paul did see a timeline in the scriptures. And I think that many important OT passages that Paul used can be used and interpreted in the same sense of the past, present, or future tense in which they were written.
My interpretaions below are intended to address your (Ben) comments, but are also addressed to a general audience ---
The Prediction, the Promise, and a Done Deal
In Galatians, Paul claimed the predictive nature of the scriptures.
Galatians chapter 3 | Comments |
And the Scripture, having foreseen (προϊδοῦσα) that God justifies the Gentiles by faith, foretold the gospel (προευηγγελίσατο) to Abraham: "All the nations will be blessed in you." (3:8) | having foreseen (προϊδοῦσα, aorist, participle, active), or ‘having seen or beheld in advance’ foretold the gospel (προευηγγελίσατο, aorist, indicative, middle), in general use ‘brought glad tidings beforehand’ --- but for Paul, this term nicely described a scriptural prediction of his gospel (τὸ εὐαγγέλιόν). Both terms, used by Paul only in this verse, clearly convey the concept that Paul saw portions of the scriptures as predicting future events. |
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ. (3:16) | Paul’s funky logic at work. From Genesis 12:7 and 13:15. |
Why then the Law? It was added on account of transgressions, until the seed [i.e. Christ] to whom the promise has been made would come (ἔλθῃ) … (3:19) | would come (ἔλθῃ, aorist, subjunctive, active), also appropriately translated as ‘should come’. This form of the verb indicates an expected future event --- when Christ would come. This would by implication include the salvific death of Jesus, but the need for the law --- in Paul’s world --- would only end upon the revelation, when the knowledge of Jesus Christ came. |
I think Paul’s use of the salvific figure in Isaiah 53 as a thematic representation of his Jesus Christ is adequately established. I take it a bit further. Along with other portions of the scriptures, I think Paul mined these passages to find and construct the story of his Jesus Christ.
In Isaiah, I think the salvific death of his Jesus Christ was a done-deal for Paul, but with current benefits. The wounding, death and delivering up are all presented in the past tense, but the bearing of sins for the many is in the present.
Isaiah 53 (a few examples) | How Paul Interpreted --- |
This one bears (φέρει) our sins, and is grieved for us, and we accounted him to be in trouble, and calamity, and ill treatment (53:4) | bears (φέρει) --- present, indicative, active --- the sacrifice of Jesus is acting in the present time in “bearing” our sins. |
But he was wounded (ετραυματίσθη) on account of our sins, and was bruised because of our iniquities … (53:5) … the Lord delivered him up (παρέδωκεν αυτόν) for our sins. (53:6) … he was led (ήχθη) to death. (53:8) … his soul was delivered up (παρεδόθη) unto death … (53:12) | All these verbs are in the aorist, indicative representing the past tense here. I think Paul saw the death of Jesus as having already occurred when Isaiah was written. “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3) |
The Lord wills to cleanse him from his blow. If you can give an offering for sin, your soul will see a long-lived seed. And the Lord wills to take away from the travail of his soul, to show him light, and to form [him] with understanding; to justify the just one who serves many well; and he will bear their sins. Therefore he will inherit many, and he will divide the spoils of the mighty; because his soul was delivered up unto death … (53:10-12) | I think Paul saw the concept of the resurrection of Jesus in these verses. |
It’s interesting to note the author of Romans revealed a conceptual link between Paul’s Abrahamic “promise” in Galatians and Isaiah 53. In Romans chapter 4 one finds an updated review of Paul’s argument in Gal 3:6-26, and the pericope concludes (Romans 4:25) with a paraphrase of Isaiah 53 (especially verses 6, 8, and 10-12, LXX). These materials were central to Paul's system.
I think a significant portion of the framework for Paul’s concept of the suffering and death of his Jesus is found in Isaiah 53 along with Deuteronomy.
… for being cursed by God is every one hanging upon a tree … (Deuteronomy 21:23)
These verses were used by Paul to construct his argument in Galatians ---
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us; for it has been written: "Cursed is everyone hanging on a tree". (Galatians 3:13).
In Paul, for his system aimed specifically at Gentiles, Jesus emptied himself and took the form of a man and was humbled to the point of death (Philippians 2:7-8) --- was humiliated, ill-treated, and led to death in order to bear the sins of the many (Isaiah 53) --- and this humiliating death took the form of being hung on a stake or tree per the Jewish tradition in order to exempt believers from the Jewish law (Deuteronomy 27:26, 21:23 and Galatians 3:13) , thus allowing Gentiles full participation with the ancient god of Israel without the need for circumcision.
One might wonder why Paul did not elaborate more in his letters on the passages in Isaiah 53, with more details of the salvific sufferings and sacrifice. But it’s important to remember the occasional nature of Paul’s letters --- letters intended not as theological treatises, but rather written to address problems, questions, and misunderstandings encountered among each group. And, of course, to garner compensation.
Paul spent time with each of his groups during his evangelizing visit relating his system. The centerpiece of that system was the salvific sufferings and death of his Jesus Christ, and one can safely assume that Paul related those events in detail.
In Galatians, Paul found it necessary to remind the group about how the self-accepted humiliation of Jesus had redeemed them from the law because circumcision was the primary issue with that congregation.
But all of his congregations apparently accepted the salvific death of Paul’s Jesus figure. Without that central and foundational concept they would not have any use for Paul --- he might just as well have read animal entrails to foretell their future. Other than ancillary issues, implications, and a few brief reminders related to the salvific death of Jesus, Paul did not find it necessary to spend ink in his letters reviewing the events of that death ---- as found in the scriptures. Events he had already related to them in detail. Events they had accepted.
The Mystery Revealed
Paul used the scriptures to offer to Gentiles the ability to become full participants with the ancient god of the Jews without the need of circumcision. And as a very significant benefit, all those who believed in Paul’s salvific heavenly spirit would have their sins forgiven and escape the terrible wrath to come --- concepts also patched together by Paul from the scriptures. Paul’s heavenly spirit would make his appearance on earth in the near future to sweep all the believers away into the heavens. It was an audacious and bold scheme. But Paul did find some takers.
I think 1 Corinthians is the best example among Paul’s letters of a collaborative effort. A number of passages have been variously characterized by investigators as pre-Pauline, non-Pauline, or interpolations. For example, the “love poem” of chapter 13, the “kerygma” of 15:3-8, and some of the poetic material in 15:42-57. But I think this material was included in the letter with Paul’s approval and editorial control.
Paul, in his travels, accumulated a handful of junior-partners. I suspect at least one or more of those partners had the benefit of a proper Greek education. I think we see in some of those passages in 1 Corinthians the work of one or more Greek junior-partners anxious to show-off their skills, to stretch their rhetorical wings, and to please the boss.
I find it as no surprise that some of the “long-secret mystery” language in 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 is similar to the last doxology of Romans (Romans 16:25-27). I think one of Paul’s junior-partners had a hand, to a varying extent, in both. And I find it as no surprise that some of the phraseology in those pasages is non-typical for most of the Paulines.
I think Paul constructed his system from the Jewish scriptures. It was, in essence, a mystery kept secret in the ages before Paul applied his very creative readings to patch together his discovery, his salvific creation. Paul constructed his Frankenstein from the ancient scrolls, but I think it was one of Paul’s Greek junior-partners that applied the spin, the specific language about Paul’s creation that we find in these passages ---
… according to the revelation of the mystery (μυστηρίου) having been kept secret in times of the ages (αἰωνίοις), but now having been made manifest by and through the prophetic Scriptures, according to the commandment of the eternal God, having been made known to all the nations … (Romans 16:25-26)
I think Paul would have been pleased.
robert j
n. b. --- I bid adieu to all, as I won't be participating further for at least quite some time.