Paul’s Jesus – Creature of the Scriptures or Recent Figure?

[Giuseppe]

Another evidence that revealing is the same as sending/coming:

Romans 11:26-27

26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

Who “will come from Zion” is the Jesus (again: revelation) preached by Paul & co.

[robert j]

reposted below

[Secret Alias]

If Jesus was a god it would stand to reason that he would both be a creature from the scriptures and a recent figure if he was the same individual described in the gospel.

[robert j]

The double ἔτι creates gibberish, and I doubt it is original. Or, if it is, then it is a slip of the authorial pen ...

The problem is that Romans 5:6 is hopelessly compromised by the several textual variants in the early MSS and attestations centered on the temporal term ἔτι. As your comment demonstrates, if one can’t have any reasonable level of confidence in the original text, then translation and further interpretations necessarily include significant guesswork.

You somehow equate God sending forth his son with God revealing his son in Paul in Galatians 1.15-16, but that is far from the parallel I would reach for. Revealing is not the same as sending ...

God sending his son = God sending his son to die: at the right time (Romans 5.6), in the fullness of time (Galatians 4.4). This is not some vague, arbitrary chronology; Paul obviously knows what time he has in mind, as you understand:

However, I acknowledge that that Paul may very well have intended the “fullness of time” in a recent context when God, “sent forth his son”.

It is just that I completely disagree with your parallel.

But I didn't present those verses as parallels. I presented the sequence of events that Paul himself presented.


No recent human Jesus Christ figure that recently died is clearly to be found in Paul’s letters --- at best, there are a handful of verses in which the shadow of such a figure might be glimpsed if one presupposes the existence of such a figure.

On the other hand, Paul’s letters are utterly rife with scriptural references and allusions used by Paul as source material and proof-text for his system, as well as for his own backstories. There’s Paul’s backstory about his predestination from the womb derived from Jeremiah 1, Paul’s later revelation from God and his appointment to bring the faith to the Gentiles from Numbers 12 and also from Jeremiah 1, the salvific death and resurrection from Isaiah 53, the redemption from the law from a conflation of two verses in Deuteronomy, the imminent Parousia and wrath to come from Joel 2 and perhaps also Daniel. There is no need for a recent human figure --- it all came from novel, creative, and generative readings of the Jewish Scriptures.

When did the knowledge come forth about the long-secret mystery of Jesus Christ? At the fullness of time of course. It was in Paul’s own time when Paul revealed the long-secret mystery of Jesus Christ and brought the opportunity of faith to the Gentiles, thereby providing the opportunity for the faithful to participate in the imminent Parousia and avoid the coming wrath. What would Paul say? That it was not the appropriate time?

Finally, I do not even know what it means for these events to happen, in Paul's mind, only in the scriptures. Scripture revealing these events beforehand makes perfect sense to me; these events not even being thought of as having any separate existence outside of the scriptures, however, does not. This is the huge impasse between you and me, and it governs your interpretations in ways that mine are not governed.

We have both made our cases, we both have seen and evaluated the same evidence presented in relation to the death of Jesus Christ in Paul’s letters. Yet we still hold very different interpretations. I think your description as an impasse is apt, I doubt much headway is likely either way, at least for now.


But I do have a question for you about what you wrote above ---

Scripture revealing these events beforehand makes perfect sense to me ...

And what you wrote recently in the other thread ---

Paul constructed the redemptive and salvific death of his Jesus Christ by means of creative readings of the scriptures.

Same issue. It is irrelevant to when Paul thought it had all gone down, except insofar as the scriptures themselves could be used to determine the timing.

Do you find examples in Paul’s letters in which Paul used the scriptures as a foretelling of the death of Jesus Christ?

[Ben C. Smith]

You somehow equate God sending forth his son with God revealing his son in Paul in Galatians 1.15-16, but that is far from the parallel I would reach for. Revealing is not the same as sending ...

God sending his son = God sending his son to die: at the right time (Romans 5.6), in the fullness of time (Galatians 4.4). This is not some vague, arbitrary chronology; Paul obviously knows what time he has in mind, as you understand:

However, I acknowledge that that Paul may very well have intended the “fullness of time” in a recent context when God, “sent forth his son”.

It is just that I completely disagree with your parallel.

But I didn't present those verses as parallels. I presented the sequence of events that Paul himself presented.

Then what does this mean?

However, I acknowledge that that Paul may very well have intended the “fullness of time” in a recent context when God, “sent forth his son”.

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son … (Galatians 4:4)

But we are in Paul’s world here. In Paul’s world, how did god send forth his son?

But when God, the One having selected me from my mother's womb, and having called me by His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles ... (Galatians 1:15-16, conveniently borrowed from Jeremiah 1:4-5 and 1:10)

God “sent forth his son” through Paul.

You are equating the sending forth of God's son in Galatians 4.4 with the revelation of God's son in/through Paul, right? If not, what are your comments here about?

But I do have a question for you about what you wrote above ---

Scripture revealing these events beforehand makes perfect sense to me ...

And what you wrote recently in the other thread ---

Paul constructed the redemptive and salvific death of his Jesus Christ by means of creative readings of the scriptures.

Same issue. It is irrelevant to when Paul thought it had all gone down, except insofar as the scriptures themselves could be used to determine the timing.

Do you find examples in Paul’s letters in which Paul used the scriptures as a foretelling of the death of Jesus Christ?

My answer to this question is pretty nuanced and complex; I would rather not go into it here and now unless it is necessary. What is this regarding? Paul (again, as the text stands) certainly (and directly) uses the scriptures as foretelling other aspects of Jesus' messiahship.

[robert j]

About Galatians 4:4 ---

... Paul obviously has a specific time in mind ... (He) even calls it "the fullness of time" (Galatians 4.4), which sounds very much like "the ends of the ages" (1 Corinthians 10.11) during which Paul himself was living.

... Jesus died at the right time, the "right time" being the consummation of the age, which is what Galatians 4.4 is also saying: "But, when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth his son ..." The fullness of time is also the consummation of the age, just (again) like it sounds.

Yes, in Galatians 4:4 --- when “God sent forth His Son” --- was most certainly the appropriate time, the fullness of time, the consummation of the ages. It had to be, it was integral. In Paul’s system, in Paul’s world, the Parousia was imminent and all those without faith in the Son would soon suffer God’s wrath. Paul’s proclamation of Jesus Christ came at just the right time.

So what did Paul mean by “God sent forth His Son”? That phrase likely conjures-up a picture of a recent historical figure roughly contemporary with Paul if one presupposes the existence of such a figure based on the later stories, traditions and legends that developed after Paul. But no such figure is clearly to be found in Paul’s letters. And there is no need for a recent human figure --- the framework of Paul’s Christology can be shown to be derived from novel, creative, and generative readings of the Jewish Scriptures.

So again, what did Paul mean by “God sent forth His Son”?

In his letters, Paul does tell the story of how God sent forth his Son. God sent forth his son through Paul by revealing the long-secret mystery of Jesus Christ to Paul (1 Corinthians 2:7, and in a summary of Pauline thought in Romans 16:25-26).

The revelation and the proclamation of the long-secret mystery in Paul’s day began with Paul’s predestination from birth, and his later revelation and calling from God to proclaim the “Son” among the Gentiles ---

But when God, the One having selected me from my mother's womb, and having called me by His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might proclaim Him among the Gentiles ... (Galatians 1:15-16)

Paul letters are a clear record of his fulfillment of this calling --- of Paul bringing forth God’s son --- just a couple of examples ---

My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you … (Galatians 4:19)

And I having come to you brothers … I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him having been crucified … And my message and my proclamation were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:1-5)

But the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ alone --- regardless of when in time those were thought to have occurred --- did not redeem anyone from the law, did not result in any Gentile being adopted as a son of God, and did not provide anyone an escape from the coming wrath. Paul was very clear about the requirement throughout his letters --- one example from Galatians ---

And the Scripture, having foreseen that God justifies the Gentiles by faith, foretold the gospel to Abraham: "All the nations will be blessed in you." (Galatians 3:8)

The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ in itself did not bring salvation to the Gentiles --- it was faith that brought salvation. And in Paul’s letters, it was Paul and Paul alone that brought the ‘true’ faith to the Gentiles --- Paul and Paul alone through whom God brought forth his Son.

Paul’s missions, his letters, his entire extant body of work provide a clear testament of Paul bring forth God’s Son.

[Ben C. Smith]

About Galatians 4:4 ---

... Paul obviously has a specific time in mind ... (He) even calls it "the fullness of time" (Galatians 4.4), which sounds very much like "the ends of the ages" (1 Corinthians 10.11) during which Paul himself was living.

... Jesus died at the right time, the "right time" being the consummation of the age, which is what Galatians 4.4 is also saying: "But, when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth his son ..." The fullness of time is also the consummation of the age, just (again) like it sounds.

Yes, in Galatians 4:4 --- when “God sent forth His Son” --- was most certainly the appropriate time, the fullness of time, the consummation of the ages. It had to be, it was integral. In Paul’s system, in Paul’s world, the Parousia was imminent and all those without faith in the Son would soon suffer God’s wrath. Paul’s proclamation of Jesus Christ came at just the right time.

So what did Paul mean by “God sent forth His Son”? That phrase likely conjures-up a picture of a recent historical figure roughly contemporary with Paul if one presupposes the existence of such a figure based on the later stories, traditions and legends that developed after Paul. But no such figure is clearly to be found in Paul’s letters. And there is no need for a recent human figure --- the framework of Paul’s Christology can be shown to be derived from novel, creative, and generative readings of the Jewish Scriptures.

So again, what did Paul mean by “God sent forth His Son”?

In his letters, Paul does tell the story of how God sent forth his Son. God sent forth his son through Paul by revealing the long-secret mystery of Jesus Christ to Paul (1 Corinthians 2:7, and in a summary of Pauline thought in Romans 16:25-26).

The revelation and the proclamation of the long-secret mystery in Paul’s day began with Paul’s predestination from birth, and his later revelation and calling from God to proclaim the “Son” among the Gentiles ---

But when God, the One having selected me from my mother's womb, and having called me by His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might proclaim Him among the Gentiles ... (Galatians 1:15-16)

Paul letters are a clear record of his fulfillment of this calling --- of Paul bringing forth God’s son --- just a couple of examples ---

My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you … (Galatians 4:19)

And I having come to you brothers … I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him having been crucified … And my message and my proclamation were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:1-5)

But the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ alone --- regardless of when in time those were thought to have occurred --- did not redeem anyone from the law, did not result in any Gentile being adopted as a son of God, and did not provide anyone an escape from the coming wrath. Paul was very clear about the requirement throughout his letters --- one example from Galatians ---

And the Scripture, having foreseen that God justifies the Gentiles by faith, foretold the gospel to Abraham: "All the nations will be blessed in you." (Galatians 3:8)

The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ in itself did not bring salvation to the Gentiles --- it was faith that brought salvation. And in Paul’s letters, it was Paul and Paul alone that brought the ‘true’ faith to the Gentiles --- Paul and Paul alone through whom God brought forth his Son.

Paul’s missions, his letters, his entire extant body of work provide a clear testament of Paul bring forth God’s Son.

All of this, and not a single even passing reference to Romans 8; here are the passages again:

Romans 8.3-4, 14-15: 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. .... 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

Galatians 4.4-6: 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

If, on the one hand, your suggestion is that Romans 8 is also susceptible to the interpretation of God sending his son that you lay out above, then you have yet to show it. If, on the other hand, your suggestion is that Romans 8 is not a/the proper context for understanding Galatians 4, then I think you are simply mistaken, and obviously so, right from the outset; the parallels are too deep (and, I might add, well studied).

[robert j]

All of this, and not a single even passing reference to Romans 8; here are the passages again:

Romans 8.3-4, 14-15: 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. .... 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

Galatians 4.4-6: 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

If, on the one hand, your suggestion is that Romans 8 is also susceptible to the interpretation of God sending his son that you lay out above, then you have yet to show it. If, on the other hand, your suggestion is that Romans 8 is not a/the proper context for understanding Galatians 4, then I think you are simply mistaken, and obviously so, right from the outset; the parallels are too deep (and, I might add, well studied).

I did not previously respond specifically to your highlighting the parallel between Galatians 4:4 and Romans 8 because I agreed --- the passages are good parallels.

However, in the verses you cite from Romans 8, I do not see any clear reference to a recent death of Jesus Christ in relation to Paul's times. In Romans 8, it was the fulfillment of the requirement of the law provided by the receiving of the Spirit that was recent in Paul's times.

[Ben C. Smith]

All of this, and not a single even passing reference to Romans 8; here are the passages again:

Romans 8.3-4, 14-15: 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. .... 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

Galatians 4.4-6: 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

If, on the one hand, your suggestion is that Romans 8 is also susceptible to the interpretation of God sending his son that you lay out above, then you have yet to show it. If, on the other hand, your suggestion is that Romans 8 is not a/the proper context for understanding Galatians 4, then I think you are simply mistaken, and obviously so, right from the outset; the parallels are too deep (and, I might add, well studied).

I did not previously respond specifically to your highlighting the parallel between Galatians 4:4 and Romans 8 because I agreed --- the passages are good parallels.

However, I do not see any clear reference in the verses you cite from Romans 8 to a recent death of Jesus Christ in relation to Paul's times. In Romans 8, it was the fulfillment of the law provided by the receiving of the Spirit that was recent in Paul's times.

If the sending of the son in Romans 8.3-4 is the same event as the sending of the son in Galatians 4.4, then it is "in the fullness of time" that God sent his son "in the likeness of sinful flesh." What does that mean to you, and how does it tie into Philippians 2.5-11 ("being made in the likeness of men")?

[Ben C. Smith]

So again, what did Paul mean by “God sent forth His Son”?

In his letters, Paul does tell the story of how God sent forth his Son. God sent forth his son through Paul by revealing the long-secret mystery of Jesus Christ to Paul (1 Corinthians 2:7, and in a summary of Pauline thought in Romans 16:25-26).

The revelation and the proclamation of the long-secret mystery in Paul’s day began with Paul’s predestination from birth, and his later revelation and calling from God to proclaim the “Son” among the Gentiles ---

But when God, the One having selected me from my mother's womb, and having called me by His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might proclaim Him among the Gentiles ... (Galatians 1:15-16)

Paul letters are a clear record of his fulfillment of this calling --- of Paul bringing forth God’s son --- just a couple of examples ---

My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you … (Galatians 4:19)

And I having come to you brothers … I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him having been crucified … And my message and my proclamation were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:1-5)

But the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ alone --- regardless of when in time those were thought to have occurred --- did not redeem anyone from the law, did not result in any Gentile being adopted as a son of God, and did not provide anyone an escape from the coming wrath. Paul was very clear about the requirement throughout his letters --- one example from Galatians ---

And the Scripture, having foreseen that God justifies the Gentiles by faith, foretold the gospel to Abraham: "All the nations will be blessed in you." (Galatians 3:8)

The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ in itself did not bring salvation to the Gentiles --- it was faith that brought salvation. And in Paul’s letters, it was Paul and Paul alone that brought the ‘true’ faith to the Gentiles --- Paul and Paul alone through whom God brought forth his Son.

Paul’s missions, his letters, his entire extant body of work provide a clear testament of Paul bring forth God’s Son.

In this post of yours, Robert, you accurately (I think) piece together an aspect of Paul's thought that is indeed contemporaneous with Paul. Scholars sometimes call this aspect a sort of "mystic identification" with Christ. Basically, there are two stages at play: first, there is the death and resurrection of Christ; second, there is the participation of the believer in that death and resurrection. One can see these two aspects at work in passages such as the following:

Romans 6.3-7: 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be with the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

There are two different layers of events happening here. The death and resurrection of Christ must precede the believer's union with that death and resurrection. At this point, so far, it can easily be that the original death and resurrection happened ages ago, or in times unspecified, or what have you. There is no element of timing yet. But there is an order of happenings: first Christ must have died and risen again, and then later believers may be baptized into that death so as to experience that resurrection somehow.

There is another passage that is even more explicit about this sequence:

Galatians 4.4-7: 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

Notice that there are two different sendings in this passage, and they cannot be the same sending. The first sending happened in order to redeem those under the Law, so that there might be an adoption; this first sending, then, must necessarily predate the adoption. The second sending, however, comes as a result of the adoption ("because you are sons"), and so must necessarily postdate it. Notice also how the first sending is fleshly ("his son, born of a woman"), whereas the second sending is spiritual ("the spirit of his son"). These are manifestly two different things happening at two different times: first the fleshly sending of the son into the human world, and then the spiritual sending of the spirit of the son into our hearts.

However, in this case we are told when the first set of events happened: in the fullness of time. We are also, elsewhere in Paul, given more details about this first set of events:

Romans 8.3-4: 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Philippians 2.5-11: 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

These passages clearly describe the first stage of events, the original sending of Christ in the form of a human, in the likeness of flesh. The passages that you brought forth, however, to the extent that they are relevant, describe the second stage of events; for example:

Galatians 4.19: My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you....

This is not Christ being born of a woman in the fullness of time; this is a "mystic identification" of the believer (Paul's ideal reader) with Christ. This is the believer being adopted as a son, not Christ being sent in order to make that adoption possible in the first place.

I think you have simply confused the two sets of events. The original sending of the son is described in Galatians 4.4-5, in Romans 8.3-4, and in Philippians 2.5-11; the passages that you adduce are more like Galatians 4.6-7, which describes the second set, the "mystic identification." But we are told that the first set happened in the fullness of time (Galatians 4.4) or at the right time (Romans 5.6). The second set is happening "right now," contemporaneously with Paul in his dealings with his churches in the epistles.