A strange anomaly in Mark 14:41

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Charles Wilson
Posts: 1618
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: A strange anomaly in Mark 14:41

Post by Charles Wilson » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:41 am

Charles Wilson wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:29 am
The Jewish Organization of Troops had THREE Watches at night.
1. Lamentations 2: 19 (RSV):

[19] Arise, cry out in the night,
at the beginning of the watches!

2. Judges 7: 19 (RSV):

[19] So Gideon and the hundred men who were with him came to the outskirts of the camp at the beginning of the middle watch, when they had just set the watch; and they blew the trumpets and smashed the jars that were in their hands.

3. Exodus 14: 24 (RSV):

[24] And in the morning watch the LORD in the pillar of fire and of cloud looked down upon the host of the Egyptians, and discomfited the host of the Egyptians

AND

1 Samuel 11: 11 (RSV):

[11] And on the morrow Saul put the people in three companies; and they came into the midst of the camp in the morning watch, and cut down the Ammonites until the heat of the day; and those who survived were scattered, so that no two of them were left together.

Paul the Uncertain
Posts: 395
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:25 am
Contact:

Re: A strange anomaly in Mark 14:41

Post by Paul the Uncertain » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:12 pm

rgprice wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:34 am
Were audiences really supposed to detect the relationship between Psalm 22 and the Crucifixion scene from watching a play?
How many people get everything that's in Hamlet, regardless of whether they read it or attend a performance?
Also, a play with so much repetition would be really annoying and boring. Given that so much of Mark happens in double and triplicate, seeing the same scene played out multiple times with just slight variations would be really weird.
Groundhog Day grossed US$71 million in 1993 dollars. Its run time (101 minutes) is just about the same as Alec McCowen's solo Mark, exclusive of interval=intermission.

Keep it short; keep those "slight" variations interesting, use artful devices to maintain the audience's trust that all of this going somewhere ... you can hold an audience for 100 minutes or so.

On the original OP, now three years on. It is uncontroversial that like everything else written back then, Mark was likely written to be read aloud. I'll leave to philosphers and Zen adepts how any work can be read aloud without being performed.

Meanwhile, modern punctuation didn't exist. So when we read (World English Bible):
He came the third time and said to them, “Sleep on now, and take your rest. It is enough. The hour has come. Behold, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Arise! Let’s get going. Behold, he who betrays me is at hand.”
A performer might have parsed the original
Narrator voice: He came the third time and said to them,
Jesus voice: Sleep on now, and take your rest. It is enough.
Narrator voice: The hour has come.
Jesus voice: Behold, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Arise! Let’s get going. Behold, he who betrays me is at hand.
That doesn't mean that there wasn't something else there before, but there isn't necessarily a performance problem with the oldest extant text, either. The modern translator who assigns "The hour has come" to the Jesus character without any indication of a break may have made a problem for us that wasn't there originally.

Charles Wilson
Posts: 1618
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: A strange anomaly in Mark 14:41 - Another Example

Post by Charles Wilson » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:46 pm

Josephus, War..., 6, 1, 7:

"Now two days afterward twelve of those men that were on the forefront, and kept watch upon the banks, got together, and called to them the standard-bearer of the fifth legion, and two others of a troop of horsemen, and one trumpeter; these went without noise, about the ninth hour of the night, through the ruins, to the tower of Antonia; and when they had cut the throats of the first guards of the place, as they were asleep, they got possession of the wall, and ordered the trumpeter to sound his trumpet. Upon which the rest of the guard got up on the sudden, and ran away, before any body could see how many they were that were gotten up; for, partly from the fear they were in, and partly from the sound of the trumpet which they heard, they imagined a great number of the enemy were gotten up. But as soon as Caesar heard the signal, he ordered the army to put on their armor immediately, and came thither with his commanders, and first of all ascended, as did the chosen men that were with him..."

gryan
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: A strange anomaly in Mark 14:41

Post by gryan » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:12 am

gryan wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:21 am
gryan wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:00 am
rgprice wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:34 am
...I do agree with the OP that something is odd about 14:41.
Literal Standard Version
And He comes the third time and says to them, “Sleep on from now on, and rest—it is over; the hour came; behold, the Son of Man is delivered up into the hands of the sinful;

That literal rendering is odd! (For those of us accustomed to reading the words as a question):

NIV
Returning the third time, he said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners.
Matthew's redaction alters it a bit:

...then He comes to His disciples and says to them,
“Sleep on from now on, and rest! Behold,
the hour has come near, and the Son of Man is delivered up into the hands of sinners.
(Literal Standard Version)

Luke's redaction turns it into a question:

...and He said to them,
“Why do you sleep?
Having risen, pray that you may not enter into temptation.”
(Literal Standard Version)
Mark 14:32-42, Literal Standard Version

32And they come to a spot, the name of which [is] Gethsemane, and He says to His disciples, “Sit here until I may pray”; 33and He takes Peter, and James, and John with Him, and began to be amazed, and to be very heavy,
34and He says to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful—to death; remain here, and watch.”
35And having gone forward a little, He fell on the earth, and was praying that, if it be possible, the hour may pass from Him, 36and He said, “Abba, Father; all things are possible to You; make this cup pass from Me; but not what I will, but what You [will].”
37And He comes, and finds them sleeping, and says to Peter, “Simon, you sleep! You were not able to watch one hour! 38Watch and pray, that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is forward, but the flesh weak.”
39And again having gone away, He prayed, saying the same word;
40and having returned, He found them sleeping again, for their eyes were heavy, and they had not known what they might answer Him.
41And He comes the third time and says to them, “Sleep on from now on, and rest—it is over; the hour came; behold,
the Son of Man is delivered up into the hands of the sinful;
42rise, we may go, behold, he who is delivering Me up has come near.”

I hear echos of Paul in Romans 8:1-8 (Literal Standard Version):

There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit; 2for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me free from the law of sin and of death; 3for what the Law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, 4that the righteousness of the Law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh, mind the things of the flesh; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit; 6for the mind of the flesh [is] death, and the mind of the Spirit—life and peace; 7because the mind of the flesh [is] enmity to God, for to the Law of God it does not subject itself, 8for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

Re: "Sleep on from now on, and rest—it is over"

Could Mark's Jesus be giving a Pauline symbolic declaration of death toward life under the law "weak through the flesh"?

Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 1470
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: A strange anomaly in Mark 14:41

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:52 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:22 am
There is a very strange anomaly in Mark 15:41:
And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand.
Paul the Uncertain wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:47 am
Even with modern conventions for explicit intraspeech stage directions, you can find awkward-for-silent-readers transitions like that, where the author trusts the director and performer to read the speech effectively. It can even be part of the fun to see what the company comes up with.
imho, some other translations are right

English Standard Version
And he came the third time and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? It is enough; the hour has come.


lsayre
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: A strange anomaly in Mark 14:41

Post by lsayre » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:05 am

'Paul' (just as for Jesus in the Mark passages you quoted above) appears to me to have died (perhaps on the battlefield along with and perhaps right along side of Jesus, or perhaps even as Jesus himself), and in (ahem) "his" letters we hear the voice (logos, wisdom, spirit, Jesus) of Paul (through the narrator, who is all there ever really was of Paul) reverberating from beyond the grave as a spirit hearkening woes of warning to those of the flesh.

Paraphrasing:
There is no condemnation to those under Jesus command who now walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. God be (or is) fulfilled in us who do not (or no longer) walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

All (of Paul) is war related and militaristic allegory. Likely in the form of a play, or of plays. One aspect of the plot (or motif) is to turn the losers into the winners.

Paul the Uncertain
Posts: 395
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:25 am
Contact:

Re: A strange anomaly in Mark 14:41

Post by Paul the Uncertain » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:38 am

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:52 am
imho, some other translations are right

English Standard Version
And he came the third time and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? It is enough; the hour has come.

Yes. The verbs are present indicative. Keeping the entire speech assigned to the Jesus character, and starting from unpunctuated " ... you still sleep and rest - that's enough - it's time ..."

You still sleep and rest?

is definitely a possible performance of the line.

The [=unique] correct reading? Not if I were directing :D But if the perfomer were comfortable with it, then I'd relent.

Paul the Uncertain
Posts: 395
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:25 am
Contact:

Re: A strange anomaly in Mark 14:41

Post by Paul the Uncertain » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:37 am

The imperative form ("sleep on...take") is found in the King James Version, which is of course influential among English-language translations.

41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

42 Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand.

43 And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, ...

There is the possibility of doing some "experimental archeology" on whether that translation is playable without addition of something now missing or displaced, alteration of speech assignment, or change of punctuation.

Alec McCowen's script is the KJV, and here's how he played verses 14:41 onto 42:

https://youtu.be/NBw66sx6IJU?t=5385

Alec just turned his head. Perfect.

Conclude: Mark's gospel is a robustly playable script just as it reaches us. It also works fine as simple prose. What is its genre, then? Plastic fantastic.

Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 1470
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: A strange anomaly in Mark 14:41

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:32 pm

Paul the Uncertain wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:37 am
The imperative form ("sleep on...take") is found in the King James Version, which is of course influential among English-language translations.
I don't quite understand why the KJV translates it as a question in Mark 14:37 and not in Mark 14:41. Both times the verb is in Present Indicative Active and in the same situation.

37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?

41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come ...


gryan
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: A strange anomaly in Mark 14:41

Post by gryan » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:44 pm

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:32 pm
Paul the Uncertain wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:37 am
The imperative form ("sleep on...take") is found in the King James Version, which is of course influential among English-language translations.
I don't quite understand why the KJV translates it as a question in Mark 14:37 and not in Mark 14:41. Both times the verb is in Present Indicative Active and in the same situation.

37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?

41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come ...

The Literal Standard Version (a translation of the Textus Receptus published in Feb. 2020) is more consistent than the KJV and translates "sleep" as an exclamation in Mark 14:37:

32And they come to a spot, the name of which [is] Gethsemane, and He says to His disciples, “Sit here until I may pray”; 33and He takes Peter, and James, and John with Him, and began to be amazed, and to be very heavy, 34and He says to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful—to death; remain here, and watch.” 35And having gone forward a little, He fell on the earth, and was praying that, if it be possible, the hour may pass from Him, 36and He said, “Abba, Father; all things are possible to You; make this cup pass from Me; but not what I will, but what You [will].” 37And He comes, and finds them sleeping, and says to Peter, “Simon, you sleep! You were not able to watch one hour! 38Watch and pray, that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is forward, but the flesh weak.” 39And again having gone away, He prayed, saying the same word; 40and having returned, He found them sleeping again, for their eyes were heavy, and they had not known what they might answer Him. 41And He comes the third time and says to them, “Sleep on from now on, and rest—it is over; the hour came; behold, the Son of Man is delivered up into the hands of the sinful; 42rise, we may go, behold, he who is delivering Me up has come near.”'

Post Reply