How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Jax
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by Jax » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:32 pm

hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:49 am
Well, you have fatally trapped yourself.
Kapyong wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:07 pm
'Fatally' ?
Are you going to kill me over this ?
Why do you ask such a question after you have fatally trapped yourself. I will stay a "million" miles away from you and your trap while I watch you attempt t o get out your own device.



Image

It most astonishing that you would use the Christian Bible as a credible historical source for Bible characters

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arnoldo
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by arnoldo » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:30 pm

Jax wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:32 pm
It most astonishing that you would use the Christian Bible as a credible historical source for Bible characters
I don't get it. ;)

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Kapyong
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by Kapyong » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:42 pm

arnoldo wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:30 pm
I don't get it. ;)
It's devices at twelve paces !

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Kapyong
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by Kapyong » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:54 pm

Gday all,
اَلسَّلَامُ عَلَيْكُم‎
hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:58 pm
You are the one who wrote the nonsense about writings in the Christian Bible are historical evidence of Paul not realising that the Christian Bible claims the Lord Jesus was on earth.
Hmmm, are you saying that Paul DID realise that the Christian Bible claims the Lord Jesus was on earth ?
;)
hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:58 pm
It most astonishing that you would use the Christian Bible as a credible historical source for Bible characters.
More astonishing that you would accuse a Jesus Mythicist of such.

Look -
no offence hakeem, but your English comprehension just isn't up to the task here - you frequently miss the entire point of poster's arguments. And you couple that with rude arrogance. It's not working out for any of us.

May I suggest you take a different tack ?


Kapyong

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Kapyong
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by Kapyong » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:30 pm

السلام عليكم hakeem

Let me try to pick up with Paul, and explain what I mean.

You made this absolute claim :
hakeem wrote:You have no historical evidence whatsoever that there was an actual person called Paul who really wrote Epistles to anyone at any time
"no historical evidence whatsoever" ?
Pardon ?

Then why do so many people claim a person called Paul did so ?
Could it be the letters of Paul ?

Your claim is clearly false - you went far too far, even in a place where doubt is rife, and many of us do question whether Paul ever existed.

Perhaps you meant :
"APART from the letters of Paul, we have no historical evidence whatsoever ..."
(Closer to being true.)

But what you ended up saying amounts to :
"the letters of Paul are NOT historical evidence of Paul...".
Obviously wrong.

When I think you probably meant :
"the letters of Paul are NOT CERTAIN historical evidence of Paul..."
Which most would probably agree with - we've discussed doubts about Paul here recently.

Then you went on to equate :
the letters of Paul -> Paul
with
the Gospels -> Jesus
which is just plain silly.

Come on hakeem, you can do better :)


Kapyong

hakeem
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by hakeem » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:42 pm

hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:58 pm
You are the one who wrote the nonsense about writings in the Christian Bible are historical evidence of Paul not realising that the Christian Bible claims the Lord Jesus was on earth.
Kapyong wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:54 pm

Hmmm, are you saying that Paul DID realise that the Christian Bible claims the Lord Jesus was on earth ?

Which Paul are you talking about? The characters called Paul were manufactured no earlier than c 170 or after True Discourse attributed to Celsus.


One of the Epistles under the name of Paul claimed the Lord Jesus gave him information about the Last Supper which is found in Luke and Justin's First Apology.

1 Corinthians 11
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
Now look at gLuke.

Luke 22
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
Examine First Apology attributed to Justin
Justin's Apology
For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone...
The Last Supper was an earthly event in Christian Bible stories.

The argument that the Epistles under the name of Paul teach about a Jesus who was never on earth is completely absurd and without support in or out their Canon.
hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:58 pm
It most astonishing that you would use the Christian Bible as a credible historical source for Bible characters.
Kapyong wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:54 pm

More astonishing that you would accuse a Jesus Mythicist of such.
That is precisely what is so astonishing. You reject the historicity of Jesus in the Bible yet admit you use the same Bible as historical evidence of a Bible character called Paul.
Kapyong wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:54 pm
Look -
no offence hakeem, but your English comprehension just isn't up to the task here - you frequently miss the entire point of poster's arguments. And you couple that with rude arrogance. It's not working out for any of us.
What you say about me is rather useless because you have no historical evidence of an actual person called Paul and cannot show that he wrote letters to anyone at anytime.

It is most alarming that one whose English comprehension is supposedly so great yet your myth Jesus [never on earth Jesus] argument is so extremely weak by completely mis-representing the teachings of the Christian Bible.

In any event, the letters under the name of Paul support the teachings of the Church and the writings in their Canon that Jesus was the Lord from heaven, God's own Son, the Creator, killed by the Jews, was raised from the dead and seen by his disciples.
Kapyong wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:54 pm
May I suggest you take a different tack ?
Kapyong
My argument that Jesus was not a figure of history cannot be changed unless there is new evidence.

Christian writings admit their Jesus was the Lord God who came down from heaven and then became man born of a woman.
The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel....

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arnoldo
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by arnoldo » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:11 am

hakeem wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:42 pm
My argument that Jesus was not a figure of history cannot be changed unless there is new evidence. .
That is an interesting argument. Do you agree with the following statements?
aa5874 wrote:
1. The stories about Jesus in the entire NT are all false or fiction

2. Based on Justin Martyr, there were no named Gospels or epistles with the name Paul, Peter, James, John and Jude up to the middle of the 2nd century.

3. There was no orthodoxy but a multiplicity of diverse beliefs about Jesus and a philosophical entity called the Word or the Logos up to the middle of the 2nd century.

4. There was no character called Paul in the 1st century or before Justin Martyr who started any churches anywhere or preached any gospel of uncircumcision to anyone.

5. All the church writers who wrote about Paul and Peter together in Rome, and that there were letters with their names all wrote fiction.

#3 is interesting due to perhaps supporting the hypothesis that the belief in Jesus existed before the named gospels/espistles were written (see #2).

hakeem
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by hakeem » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:56 pm

My argument is that the teaching in the Christian Bible, especially the Pauline Epistles, is that their Jesus was the Lord who came from heaven, was made of a woman, was killed or caused to be killed by the Jews and raised from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law
Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross..
1 Thessalonians 14-15
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us...
Romans 6:9
We know that Christ has been raised from the dead and he will never die again. Death no longer has power over him.

The argument that the Lord Jesus in the Epistles was taught to have never been on earth is a gross mis-representation of the teachings in the Epistles under the name of Paul.

Jesus was a non-historical character like Romulus and Remus who were also believed to have been on earth.

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Kapyong
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by Kapyong » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:30 pm

hakeem / dejudge / dejuror -

It seems you are here just to bash infidels.
But the infidels are losing interest.


Kapyong

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