How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
hakeem
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by hakeem » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:25 am

neilgodfrey wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:29 am

What happens to me when I read Doherty? I think about his arguments: some of them I find very interesting and others I disagree with strongly. Did you think I just follow Doherty the way a fundamentalist just mindlessly follows the bible and favourite teachers of the bible?
I strongly disagree with Doherty's argument that the Jesus in the Epistles under the name of Paul was believed to have never been on earth. The teachings in the Christian Bible is that their Jesus was the Lord from heaven who was born of a woman, was crucified in Jerusalem, raised from the dead, was seen by his disciples and ascended to heaven.

One does not have to be a fundamentalist to understand the teachings in the Christian Bible especially when ancient writers who used the Christian Bible taught that Jesus was believed to be on earth.
neilgodfrey wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:29 am
But you did not quote 1 Thess 2:14-15 as a "smoking gun". You posted it as prooftext argument to make your case. Doherty spends many pages discussing the background, context and meaning of Hebrews 8:4 to demonstrate that it supports (not makes) his case.
1 Thessalonians 2:14-15 is part of the evidence that contradicts Doherty's argument. Your claim that "Doherty spends many pages discussing the background, context and meaning of Hebrews 8:4 to demonstrate that it supports (not makes) his case" is rather irrelevant. You very well know that there are Scholars who reject his interpretation of the passage.
neilgodfrey wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:29 am
I have likewise written at length on the passage you quote and I explore in some depth the arguments from two schools of scholars: one side are critical scholars and the other are apologists. The critical scholars are by no means mythicists, but they do present a strong series of arguments -- evidence -- to demonstrate that the passage is a later insertion into Paul's letters. The apologists disagree and present their arguments.

So even if you disagree with the critical scholars because they question the very "word of God" as the Church has handed down to you, you cannot simply declare that the passage is without some reasonable doubt among well-meaning scholars.

Unless you think anyone who is critical of the holy word of God is a baleful sinner who deserves to die in hell.
I have never ever declared that "the passage is without some reasonable doubt among well-meaning scholars". Any person can doubt anything in or out the Christian Bible but they should not mis-represent the teachings of the Church as stated in their Canon.

I have explored multiple writings, it is a fact that the Christian Bible teaches that their Jesus Christ was the Lord from heaven, God's own Son who was killed by the Jews, was raised from the dead and was seen by over 500 hundred persons at once.

neilgodfrey wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:29 am
My point is that I prefer to garner evidence and understand the foundations of various arguments. I don't believe I should just believe the world is a few thousand years old or that Jesus rose from the dead just because the Bible tells me so.
You seem not to understand that difference between the teachings in the Christian Bible and historical evidence.

The teachings of the Christian Bible are not historical evidence for the age of the earth or for an actual resurrection.

The Christian Bible tell us what Christians believed or what the authors wanted people to believe.

It is a fact that in the Christian Bible that it is taught that their Jesus was on earth.
neilgodfrey wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:29 am
Just quoting bible texts to prove your case on any argument is not scholarly, it is not rational, it is merely soap-box preaching.
Your statement makes very little sense and is also an apparent deliberate mis-representation. I do not only quote bible texts to support my argument that the character called Jesus was not a figure of history.

Jesus and Paul of the Christian Bible never ever existed and were always products of belief based on hundreds of writings in and out the Christian Bible.

In any event, the teachings of the Christians are in their Bible and must be and always are referred to by every single person [Scholar or not] who makes an argument for or against mythicism.

hakeem
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by hakeem » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:36 am

duplicated.
Last edited by hakeem on Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

hakeem
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by hakeem » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:41 am

neilgodfrey wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:41 am

I forgot to tell you what I think of Doherty's argument with respect to Hebrews 8:4. But then again, I don't see the relevance of your bringing it up. My point was that there are more mythicist arguments extant that place the "nonhistorical" Jesus on earth for his suffering, death and resurrection. That was my original point. It follows that 1 Thess 2:14-15 that you see as a prooftext for historicity can be just as easily embraced by a mythicist argument -- but to be honest it cannot be used as a bedrock writing of Paul himself.

So I don't know why you think somehow quoting Doherty citing a verse giving strong support for one particular mythicist argument has anything to do with the point of interest to me.
You seem confused. Please tell us what can be used as a bedrock writing of Paul himself?
You have no historical evidence whatsoever that there was an actual person called Paul who really wrote Epistles to anyone at any time.

gmx
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by gmx » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:58 am

hakeem wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:41 am
neilgodfrey wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:41 am

I forgot to tell you what I think of Doherty's argument with respect to Hebrews 8:4. But then again, I don't see the relevance of your bringing it up. My point was that there are more mythicist arguments extant that place the "nonhistorical" Jesus on earth for his suffering, death and resurrection. That was my original point. It follows that 1 Thess 2:14-15 that you see as a prooftext for historicity can be just as easily embraced by a mythicist argument -- but to be honest it cannot be used as a bedrock writing of Paul himself.

So I don't know why you think somehow quoting Doherty citing a verse giving strong support for one particular mythicist argument has anything to do with the point of interest to me.
You seem confused. Please tell us what can be used as a bedrock writing of Paul himself?
You have no historical evidence whatsoever that there was an actual person called Paul who really wrote Epistles to anyone at any time.
That's a really great question. Why do we assume there are authentic letters of Paul, and then subsequent forgeries made in Paul's name? Perhaps "letters from Paul" are a genre, and the "authentic letters" are from the first successful author writing to that genre. It's hard to understand why someone would write Philemon pretending to be Paul, or even at all... yet there are clearly problems with it being an authentic letter.
I saw a Naked girl ,Slowly emerge in front of me,Greek hairstyle,Very beautiful,She has a beautiful [fine] profile.; She is fine in profile. the view of profile,hard to tell.

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Kapyong
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by Kapyong » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:26 pm

Gday all,
hakeem wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:25 am
I strongly disagree with Doherty's argument that the Jesus in the Epistles under the name of Paul was believed to have never been on earth. The teachings in the Christian Bible is that their Jesus was the Lord from heaven who was born of a woman, was crucified in Jerusalem, raised from the dead, was seen by his disciples and ascended to heaven.
Born of woman ?
Who ? Where ?
Does Paul say it was physical birth, on Earth, to historical woman Mary ?
No.

Paul DOES say it is a 'allegory', with the woman apparently being Hagar - he also refers to 'Jerusalem above, our heavenly mother'. NOT about literal physical birth at all.

That is the opposite of what you claim, hakeem - have you ever read Galatians ?

Crucified in Jerusalem ?
Pardon ?
Paul did NOT place the crucifixion in Jerusalem.
He also visited Jerusalem without giving the slightest hint that the crucifixion happened there.
The opposite of your claim - hmmm, have you ever read Paul's letters hakeem ?

raised from the dead ?
So what ?
Other mythical god-men did the same.
Are you not aware of that, hakeem ?

seen by his disciples ?
So what ?
People saw visions of mythical god-men all the time - they still do.
Did you not know that, hakeem ?

ascended to heaven ?
So what ?
Heaven is full of ascended divinities.
Didn't you realise that, hakeem ?

Jesus is a heavenly being, never on earth - not according to Paul anyway.

Kapyong

neilgodfrey
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by neilgodfrey » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:01 pm

hakeem wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:41 am


You seem confused. Please tell us what can be used as a bedrock writing of Paul himself?
You have no historical evidence whatsoever that there was an actual person called Paul who really wrote Epistles to anyone at any time.
I have stated my views clearly enough already. Refer back to my earlier comments. I have nothing more to add.

(You come across like a hot-headed accusing prosecutor. If that's your thing, fine. I can just ignore you. But if you want a serious discussion I suggest you change your tune.)

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Kapyong
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by Kapyong » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:45 pm

Gday all,
hakeem wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:41 am
You have no historical evidence whatsoever that there was an actual person called Paul who really wrote Epistles to anyone at any time.
Apart from the historical evidence of numerous ancient letters attributed to Paul, to various people and churches.

Kapyong

hakeem
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by hakeem » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:49 am

hakeem wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:41 am
You have no historical evidence whatsoever that there was an actual person called Paul who really wrote Epistles to anyone at any time.
Kapyong wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:45 pm
Apart from the historical evidence of numerous ancient letters attributed to Paul, to various people and churches.

Kapyong
Well, you have fatally trapped yourself.

If writings in the Christian Bible are historical evidence of Paul then based on your flawed reasoning the very same Bible would be historical evidence that the Lord Jesus Christ was on earth. You must have forgotten that numerous writings in the Christian Bible state Jesus was on trial under Pilate and that he was killed by the Jews.

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Kapyong
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by Kapyong » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:07 pm

Gday all :)
hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:49 am
Well, you have fatally trapped yourself.
'Fatally' ?
Are you going to kill me over this ?
hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:49 am
If writings in the Christian Bible are historical evidence of Paul then based on your flawed reasoning the very same Bible would be historical evidence that the Lord Jesus Christ was on earth.
Oh, so Lord Jesus Christ wrote the bible did he ?

Hakeem - please stop all this silly nonsense :)


Kapyong

hakeem
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Re: How does the mythical Jesus thing hang together?

Post by hakeem » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:58 pm

hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:49 am
Well, you have fatally trapped yourself.
Kapyong wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:07 pm
'Fatally' ?
Are you going to kill me over this ?
Why do you ask such a question after you have fatally trapped yourself. I will stay a "million" miles away from you and your trap while I watch you attempt t o get out your own device.
hakeem wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:49 am
If writings in othe Christian Bible are historical evidence of Paul then based on your flawed reasoning the very same Bible would be historical evidence that the Lord Jesus Christ was on earth.
Kapyong wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:07 pm
Oh, so Lord Jesus Christ wrote the bible did he ?

Hakeem - please stop all this silly nonsense :)


Kapyong
You are the one who wrote the nonsense about writings in the Christian Bible are historical evidence of Paul not realising that the Christian Bible claims the Lord Jesus was on earth.

It most astonishing that you would use the Christian Bible as a credible historical source for Bible characters.

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