Let the reader understand... Again

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
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Re: Let the reader understand... Again

Post by John2 »

Ken,

Thank you for the thorough response. I'm still giving it some thought and will get back to you.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Let the reader understand... Again

Post by John2 »

Alright, I have some time. In the big picture, I'm seeing that the other elements of Mark 13 seem applicable to the Fourth Philosophy and the situation in Judea pre-70 CE, so I'm having trouble accepting that the element of brother betraying brother to death, etc. would apply to a post-70 CE situation. Let's take these other elements one by one.

Mk. 13:1-2:
As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”

“Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”


So the context from the get go is that the Temple is standing and that it will be destroyed, and that seems most applicable to a pre-70 CE situation to me. That would be my first choice, anyway.

Mk. 13:5-6:
Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many.
This too seems most applicable to me to the pre-70 CE situation, given what Josephus says about the Fourth Philosophic Messiah-types in War 2.13.4, for example (and bearing in mind that the context of Mk. 13 is that the Temple is still standing):
These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretense of divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government; and these prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, as pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty.
Even if this could be applicable to post-70 CE Messiah-types, the pre-70 CE context of Mark 13 makes me vote for these pre-70 CE Messiah-types.

Mk. 13:7-8:
When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
I take "the end" to be the End Time (when the Son of Man comes and judges people, etc.), and Jesus says, again in a pre-70 CE context, that these are some of the signs of it before it gets here (i.e, when it is "still to come"), and these signs too, while perhaps applicable to a post-70 CE situation, are at least also, and in my view most applicable to the pre-70 CE context of Mk. 13. As Josephus describes the pre-70 CE situation in Ant. 18.1.1, the Fourth Philosophers:
... exhorted the nation to assert their liberty ... so men received what they said with pleasure, and this bold attempt proceeded to a great height. All sorts of misfortunes also sprang from these men, and the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree; one violent war came upon us after another ...
Mk. 13:8:
There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
Ant. 18.1.1:
... a famine also coming upon us, reduced us to the last degree of despair.
War 4.4.5:
... for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming.
Earthquakes "in various places" and famines pre-70 CE are also recorded by pagan writers, such as Tacitus.
Many prodigies happened this year ... frequent earthquakes occurred ... A failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=-oIXA ... es&f=false
And again, in a pre-70 CE context, Jesus emphasizes that these signs are the beginning of the birth pains of the End Time.

Mk. 13:9-11:
You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
I've already given examples above of pre-70 CE Christians being "handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues," such as 2 Cor. 11:22-25:
Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones ...


So even though there may also be post-70 CE examples of this, given the pre-70 CE context of Mark 13, I vote for the pre-70 CE examples.

Mk. 13:14:
When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


Again, I vote for an example that fits the pre-70 CE situation (and fits the context of Daniel it is based on, i.e., the Temple), either the Romans setting up their standards on the Temple Mount that Josephus describes in War 6.6.1 and/or the Roman siege of Jerusalem, during which Titus allowed people to flee, such as to Masada (the latter of which I've discussed upthread).
And now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy.
Mk. 13:26-27:
At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
War 6.5.3:
... a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.
So for me it's just a matter of interpreting Mk. 13:12 in this same light, and the rampant "murders of men" that Josephus mentions in Ant. 18.1.1 works for me.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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Ken Olson
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Re: Let the reader understand... Again

Post by Ken Olson »

That was quite a deflection. So I'll keep this focused.

I wrote:
Additionally, I think it would be useful to look at the way our earliest known interpreters of Mark understood v. 13.12 in its context:
Luke 21.12-18: “But before all this occurs, they will arrest you and persecute you; they will hand you over to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors because of my name. 13 This will give you an opportunity to testify. 14 So make up your minds not to prepare your defense in advance; 15 for I will give you words[c] and a wisdom that none of your opponents will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, by relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 You will be hated by all because of my name. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your souls.
Would you agree that Luke 21.16 is the Lukan version of Mark 13.12, and that Luke has understood the handing over by brothers, parents, relatives and friends as something that occurs in the context of the persecution and trials of Christians (note his use of the second person plural “you”)? Do you want to argue Luke is somehow referring to the murders committed by the Sicarii in Palestine, or that he has misunderstood Mark or changed his meaning? As a second point, would you agree that since v. 16 says they will “put some of you to death” but then vv 18-19 say that “not a hair on your head will perish” and “by your endurance you will gain you souls,” that Luke is saying that even those who lose their temporal lives in these trials will gain eternal lives? I think this is a very plausible reading of Mark and Luke has got him right.
Is your position that at Luke 21.16, the author has either misunderstood or deliberately changed the meaning of Mark 13.12?
John2
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Re: Let the reader understand... Again

Post by John2 »

Ken Olson wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:25 am That was quite a deflection. So I'll keep this focused.

I wrote:
Additionally, I think it would be useful to look at the way our earliest known interpreters of Mark understood v. 13.12 in its context:
Luke 21.12-18: “But before all this occurs, they will arrest you and persecute you; they will hand you over to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors because of my name. 13 This will give you an opportunity to testify. 14 So make up your minds not to prepare your defense in advance; 15 for I will give you words[c] and a wisdom that none of your opponents will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, by relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 You will be hated by all because of my name. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your souls.
Would you agree that Luke 21.16 is the Lukan version of Mark 13.12, and that Luke has understood the handing over by brothers, parents, relatives and friends as something that occurs in the context of the persecution and trials of Christians (note his use of the second person plural “you”)? Do you want to argue Luke is somehow referring to the murders committed by the Sicarii in Palestine, or that he has misunderstood Mark or changed his meaning? As a second point, would you agree that since v. 16 says they will “put some of you to death” but then vv 18-19 say that “not a hair on your head will perish” and “by your endurance you will gain you souls,” that Luke is saying that even those who lose their temporal lives in these trials will gain eternal lives? I think this is a very plausible reading of Mark and Luke has got him right.
Is your position that at Luke 21.16, the author has either misunderstood or deliberately changed the meaning of Mark 13.12?
I think it's quite possible that Mark 13:12 could refer to judicial murder in the manner of James 5:6, as I've mentioned upthread ("You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you"). So it isn't an issue for me to apply it to a pre-70 CE situation, since I regard James as being pre-70 CE (which I grant is merely a judgement call on my part, but all things considered, that's how it strikes me).

I also see Matthew as being the earliest interpreter of Mark 13:12, and the Matthean parallel in 10:21-23 says:
Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
So here the context of brother betraying brother, etc. is within the lifetimes of the disciples in Israel before the Son of Man comes, which to me fits a pre-70 CE context, since the coming of the Son of Man is the last sign before the Temple is destroyed, which happened in 70 CE.

Mk. 13:1-4:
As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!” “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
All the signs in Mark 13 are thus contextually prior to the destruction of the Temple, and Matthew doesn't change this scenario, and neither does Luke, whatever the meaning of Mk. 13:12 may be. I think you make a good argument for the interpretation of it as judicial murder, and in any event that works just as well for me in a pre-70 CE context, like all the other signs.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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John T
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Re: Let the reader understand... Again

Post by John T »

jude77 wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:22 pm
John T wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:20 am
gmx wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:10 am Can someone explain to me what the reader is supposed to do with their understanding in Mark 13:14-17? If it refers to the first Jewish war, then isn't it too late to be issuing warnings to flee? It sounds like the author knows what happened. The nod & wink to the reader doesn't seem to make sense in this context. I'm sure there is a simple explanation.
Jesus is warning the readers/followers not to return the temple upon hearing news that the messiah has arrived. Mark 13:21-23. The reader is being forewarned with enough details about the false messiah and future events, so as to not fall into a death trap.

It was written without the knowledge of the first Jewish war (70 CE). However, Christians read into this today knowing the temple was destroyed in 70 CE and interpret it to mean that the temple must be rebuilt so as to fulfill this prediction.

Sincerely,

John T
John T, that is the best, and most original, exegesis of that passage I've ever heard. Do you have a source on that, or did you come up with it yourself. I'd like to follow up on it.
As far as my source(s)...for starters, I would point to Luke 21:20-22 and to Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History Book2, Chapter 23, The martyrdom of James, the bother of the Lord. and Book3, Chapter 5, The last siege of the Jews after Christ.

Hope that helps.

Sincerely,

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
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