Re: Let the reader understand... Again
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:36 pm
John2 wrote:
I'm talking about official Roman persecution by a governor with the power to put people to death and interrogate under torture, such as I think is implied by Mark 13.12-13:I gather you see these official proceedings as taking place after 70 CE, and while I do think Mark was written c. 70 CE, the context of Mk. 13 is presented as being Jesus' words pre-70 CE. And I find what Jesus says in Mk. 13 lines up well with what Josephus says about the lead up to and outcome of the 66-70 CE war (including seeing the abomination of desolation), and 13:9-11 also seems applicable to a pre-70 CE context.
Mk. 13.9-11:
You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
Also, you skipped the explicit prediction of the destruction of the temple in Mark 13:1-2.Mark 13.12 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; 13 and you will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
I'm not talking about local persecution or even imprisonment by Roman authorities (perhaps on local complaints) but capital cases. Paul says he has been exposed to death again and again and that he's faced danger from various sources, including shipwreck. Are you taking this as evidence that Christians were brought up on capital charges and put do death by Roman governors in Paul's time? Does Paul mention that Christians who have actually been put to death by the Roman authorities? What would suggest a situation such as that described in Mark 13:12-13?John 2: Cf. Cor. 11:12-13: Whatever anyone else dares to boast about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones ... I have been in danger ... from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles ... In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.
Again, any evidence of Christians being put to death here? (Actually, I'd want to see some evidence that this is a pre-70 text as well).John 2: James 2:6-7: But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?