Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the temple

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
bskeptic
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:42 am

Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the temple

Post by bskeptic »

I'm interested in Jesus' (reported) prediction of the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.
Matthew 24

[1] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
[2] And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Luke 19

[41] And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
[42] Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
[43] For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
[44] And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Can anyone quote/reference scholars that comment on the historicity of these predictions? Do they really go back to Jesus? Why would Jesus give a prediction of the temple's destruction?
Can anyone quote/reference scholars that comment on the historicity of these predictions? Do they really go back to Jesus? Why would Jesus give a prediction of the temple's destruction?

Also, I'm interested in any possible non-supernatural explanations for the reported predictions. (e.g. they were created after the event actually happened.)



Quote:

Bart D. Ehrman wrote: “We know with relative certainty that Jesus predicted that the Temple was soon to be destroyed by God. Predictions of this sort are contextually credible given what we have learned about other prophets in the days of Jesus. Jesus’ own predictions are independently attested in a wide range of sources (cf. Mark 13:1, 14:58; John 2:19; Acts 6:14). Moreover, it is virtually certain that some days before his death Jesus entered the Temple, overturned some of the tables that were set up inside, and generally caused a disturbance. The account is multiply attested (Mark 11 and John 2) and it is consistent with the predictions scattered throughout the tradition about the coming destruction of the Temple”

(Ehrman, Bart D. The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings. Third Edition. New York, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2004.)
outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the temple

Post by outhouse »

How he can be so certain with the writings all colected and compiled after the fall of the temple is beyond me.


I think for quite some time before the temple fell it would have been obvious its life would be short.

With the social unrest under oppression, and the Romans skill of bleeding these stubborn reliliant people dry, temple destruction was inevitable.

Add all that to a Zealot who would love to rebel against the corrupt government in gods own house, it would not take a rocket scientist to see the writing on the wall.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8015
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the temple

Post by Peter Kirby »

Hi bskeptic,

Getting philosophical...

Our historical evidence is meager, no matter what you think about Christian origins.

The twig of evidence we have isn't going to topple anyone's worldview. I don't think it ever has. (Sure, some people have said that it did, but they've only ever said it in order to sell more books.)

So, really, the answer could be different depending on whether you are an already-commited Christian with certain beliefs, or not such a one.

That's my take on it. I have an essay that is relevant (though a bit old now): Naturalistic Inquiry
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the temple

Post by outhouse »

Naturalism, nice.

Good read, thanks Peter
outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the temple

Post by outhouse »

First after reading in full your article, id like to say thanks again.

Thank you for devoting your personal time and energy to this new forum.

With your knowledge and advanced education on these topics, I see bright things for those who keep a open mind.



On a side note. While reading your article it reminded me of the first day I switched from mythicism towards believing in Jesus historicity. And it was "naturalism" of sorts that did it.

Most people have never really had the education or knowledge to be able to place these collections of scripture in context to the time they were written. Placing yourself in the authors shoes in his own time with his belief of the natural world surrounding him, how they viewed the spiritual world in their daily lives.

The day I changed my personal view, with a view of the context I imagined they held, was my last day as a mythicist.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8015
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the temple

Post by Peter Kirby »

bskeptic wrote:Why would Jesus give a prediction of the temple's destruction?
The Jews had a long history of interpreting the reasons for God allowing the first Temple to be destroyed, so there is that. Someone who felt themselves called by God to correct a people gone astray could forewarn that it could happen again (or put it more specifically as a prediction in their preaching).
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
bskeptic
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:42 am

Re: Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the temple

Post by bskeptic »

Peter Kirby wrote:
bskeptic wrote:Why would Jesus give a prediction of the temple's destruction?
The Jews had a long history of interpreting the reasons for God allowing the first Temple to be destroyed, so there is that. Someone who felt themselves called by God to correct a people gone astray could forewarn that it could happen again (or put it more specifically as a prediction in their preaching).
Yes, that's one good reason why Jesus could have done it I think.
bskeptic
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:42 am

Re: Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the temple

Post by bskeptic »

outhouse wrote: With the social unrest under oppression, and the Romans skill of bleeding these stubborn reliliant people dry, temple destruction was inevitable.
Why? Even if the Roman attack on the Jews was inevitable, why couldn't the Romans keep the temple and use it for pagan worship?
outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the temple

Post by outhouse »

bskeptic wrote:
outhouse wrote: With the social unrest under oppression, and the Romans skill of bleeding these stubborn reliliant people dry, temple destruction was inevitable.
Why? Even if the Roman attack on the Jews was inevitable, why couldn't the Romans keep the temple and use it for pagan worship?

The only reason the Romans had not taken out the temple earlier, is because it was there cash cow.

The real issue was the fact it was more trouble then the payoff, as far as Romans were concerned.

And the Jews would have all known this. Remember, "real" Jews were not responsible for the temple, Hellenist did trying to capitalize on Jewish faith in my opinion.
User avatar
Eric
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:42 am

Re: Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the temple

Post by Eric »

outhouse wrote:
bskeptic wrote:
outhouse wrote: With the social unrest under oppression, and the Romans skill of bleeding these stubborn reliliant people dry, temple destruction was inevitable.
Why? Even if the Roman attack on the Jews was inevitable, why couldn't the Romans keep the temple and use it for pagan worship?

The only reason the Romans had not taken out the temple earlier, is because it was there cash cow.

The real issue was the fact it was more trouble then the payoff, as far as Romans were concerned.

And the Jews would have all known this. Remember, "real" Jews were not responsible for the temple, Hellenist did trying to capitalize on Jewish faith in my opinion.
Simply replying for the user name -- Outhouse...love the originality and self confidence 8-)
To become fully human is divine.
Post Reply