Many will come in my name.

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JoeWallack
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These Eyes No Watched You Not Bring The World To An End

Post by JoeWallack »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:52 pm Why is the following motif doubled in Mark 13?

Mark 13.5-6 (before anything else in the discourse): 5 And Jesus began to say to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 6 Many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and will mislead many."

Mark 13.21-22 (after the abomination of desolation): 21 "And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or, 'Behold, He is there,' do not believe him; 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect."

Any ideas?

Ben.

ETA: Here are the Matthean and Lucan parallels:

Matthew 24.4-5 (before anything else in the discourse): And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many."

Luke 21.8 (before anything else in the discourse): 8 And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not go after them."

Matthew 24.23-25 (after the abomination of desolation): 23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or, 'There He is,' do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance."

These Eyes No Watched You Not Bring The World To An End

JW:
While I Am myself waiting for something which may never happen I think you could use another set of eyes here on the subject (so to speak). In the big picture "Mark's" (author) style is Inversion. The Teaching & Healing Ministry is contrasted with The Passion Ministry. The Inversion is that the presumably relatively long Teaching & Healing Ministry is dealt with quickly by minimizing descriptions with quick and short adjectives. The presumably relatively short Passion Ministry is maximized with slow and long adjectives (as always with source Paul).

The noticeably increased detail of the ch. 13 lalaland (and is it just a coincidence that it's "13") is noticeably out of place with the rest of GMark and anti-climaxed up by the clear failure of the prediction to the first Christian readers of c. 100 at the text level. At the text level I'm always reminded here of And Methodists! The comically huge buildup contrasted with the tiny fizzle out ending. At the sub-text level though the speech is not for Jesus' supposed audience but for The Readers. I know this because "Mark" explicitly says so breaking the fourth wall of the Temple.

Continuing with Inversion, "signs" to "Mark" is opposite to predecessors including Daniel (but not Paul). "Signs" is normally a positive that is used in connection with prophecy. "Mark" is clearly anti traditional use of signs. In GMark there will be no positive sign of the end (which ironically of course is what everyone in GMark is looking for). This is what "Mark's" Jesus is saying in 13, don't be fooled by positive signs. In GMark, look for the negative signs, i.e. suffering, pain and misery. This is the message to The Reader. Your two quotes above are instruction regarding what not to do, hence the double negative. The Spirit-Talkers have broken The Code of GMark. Double is a negative and triple is a positive.


Joseph

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FransJVermeiren
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Re: Many will come in my name.

Post by FransJVermeiren »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:00 am
Here is my quick and very literal translation of the Greek of that final verse: "This (ru)ler in the form of of that king shall come, and all the powers of this world shall come...." The text breaks off there, apparently.
Ben

IMO this kind of literal translation of apocalyptical texts devalues the intention of their writers. I believe they did not write vague multipurpose texts to be commented upon vainly throughout the centuries, but specific single purpose historical texts. They wrote the history of their time, but they did so in a coded way to conceal it for their enemies.

If one of the following verses of Ascension of Isaiah (4: 11) clearly refers to the imperial cult, we should translate βασιλευς in verse 4 as ‘emperor’. If in the same sentence κοσμος is used and if we know that this word sometimes refers to the Roman empire, then – in combination with ‘emperor’ – it probably refers to the Roman empire also in this instance. If ιδεα refers to the physical features of a person, we should avoid ‘form’ but translate this word at least as ‘appearance’ if not ‘face’. And if the Latin version uncovers the powerful ones as ‘of the army’ (exercitus, genitive), we could even translate these δυναμεις as ‘generals’ or ‘general staff’. If Titus is the protagonist of this verse, we can also give the names of the six members of his general staff before the walls of Jerusalem: Tiberius Alexander, Sextus Cerealius, Larcius Lepidus, Titus Phrygius, Fronto Haterius and Marcus Antonius Julianus.
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The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates. James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance.
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