Many will come in my name.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Many will come in my name.

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:57 am

"Signs and wonders" may be the same Great Fire of Rome and/or the expulsion en masse of the Jews from Rome under Claudius.

The author of Acts would be silent on the "impulsore Chresto" in conformity with the latter's reduction (by "Mark") to the status of a misleading messianic apocalypticism (even if Christian).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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GakuseiDon
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Re: Many will come in my name.

Post by GakuseiDon » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:55 am

Many will come in my name.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:52 pm
Why is the following motif doubled in Mark 13?

Mark 13.5-6 (before anything else in the discourse): 5 And Jesus began to say to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 6 Many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and will mislead many."

Mark 13.21-22 (after the abomination of desolation): 21 "And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or, 'Behold, He is there,' do not believe him; 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect."

Any ideas?
Easy, one of them in gMark is a false Christ! :cheers:

I see Vespasian has already been mentioned, but I wonder if Nero also fits the bill?

From "Ascension of Isaiah":
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... nsion.html

4.2. After it is consummated, Beliar the great ruler, the king of this world, will descend, who hath ruled it since it came into being; yea, he will descent from his firmament in the likeness of a man, a lawless king, the slayer of his mother: who himself (even) this king.
3. Will persecute the plant which the Twelve Apostles of the Beloved have planted. Of the Twelve one will be delivered into his hands.
4. This ruler in the form of that king will come and there will come and there will come with him all the powers of this world, and they will hearken unto him in all that he desires.
5. And at his word the sun will rise at night and he will make the moon to appear at the sixth hour.
6. And all that he hath desired he will do in the world: he will do and speak like the Beloved and he will say: "I am God and before me there has been none."
7. And all the people in the world will believe in him.
8. And they will sacrifice to him and they will serve him saying: "This is God and beside him there is no other."
9. And they greater number of those who shall have been associated together in order to receive the Beloved, he will turn aside after him.
10. And there will be the power of his miracles in every city and region.

One issue is that AoI may be way too late, so would require some early tradition about Nero who "will do and speak like the Beloved" to exist to influence the author of gMark. Otherwise the influence may have gone the other way.

ETA: Just rereading this: Was there a tradition of Nero causing the sun to rise at night and make the moon appear during the day, and having the power of his miracles in every city and region?
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Many will come in my name.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:39 am

GakuseiDon wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:55 am
Many will come in my name.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:52 pm
Why is the following motif doubled in Mark 13?

Mark 13.5-6 (before anything else in the discourse): 5 And Jesus began to say to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 6 Many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and will mislead many."

Mark 13.21-22 (after the abomination of desolation): 21 "And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or, 'Behold, He is there,' do not believe him; 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect."

Any ideas?
Easy, one of them in gMark is a false Christ! :cheers:

I see Vespasian has already been mentioned, but I wonder if Nero also fits the bill?

From "Ascension of Isaiah":
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... nsion.html

4.2. After it is consummated, Beliar the great ruler, the king of this world, will descend, who hath ruled it since it came into being; yea, he will descent from his firmament in the likeness of a man, a lawless king, the slayer of his mother: who himself (even) this king.
3. Will persecute the plant which the Twelve Apostles of the Beloved have planted. Of the Twelve one will be delivered into his hands.
4. This ruler in the form of that king will come and there will come and there will come with him all the powers of this world, and they will hearken unto him in all that he desires.
5. And at his word the sun will rise at night and he will make the moon to appear at the sixth hour.
6. And all that he hath desired he will do in the world: he will do and speak like the Beloved and he will say: "I am God and before me there has been none."
7. And all the people in the world will believe in him.
8. And they will sacrifice to him and they will serve him saying: "This is God and beside him there is no other."
9. And they greater number of those who shall have been associated together in order to receive the Beloved, he will turn aside after him.
10. And there will be the power of his miracles in every city and region.

One issue is that AoI may be way too late, so would require some early tradition about Nero who "will do and speak like the Beloved" to exist to influence the author of gMark. Otherwise the influence may have gone the other way.

ETA: Just rereading this: Was there a tradition of Nero causing the sun to rise at night and make the moon appear during the day, and having the power of his miracles in every city and region?
Well, Nero definitely took on anti-Christ qualities in the tradition; it seems but a short step from there to pseudo-Christ. But how early it all developed is a question of its own.
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Stuart
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Re: Many will come in my name.

Post by Stuart » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:40 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:52 pm
Why is the following motif doubled in Mark 13?

Mark 13.5-6 (before anything else in the discourse): 5 And Jesus began to say to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 6 Many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and will mislead many."

Mark 13.21-22 (after the abomination of desolation): 21 "And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or, 'Behold, He is there,' do not believe him; 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect."

Any ideas?

Ben.

ETA: Here are the Matthean and Lucan parallels:

Matthew 24.4-5 (before anything else in the discourse): And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many."

Luke 21.8 (before anything else in the discourse): 8 And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not go after them."

Matthew 24.23-25 (after the abomination of desolation): 23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or, 'There He is,' do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance."

The operative and key words "come in My name", that is Jesus, and "See to it that you are not misled" and "do not believe him". The concept of false Christs and false prophets (e.g., false Apostles/teachers/deacons) was common among all the sects referring to their rivals.

And indeed answer is to be found in the vitriol of internal Christian debate over the origin and nature of Christ. This is strongly reflected in passages of the Gospel of John, as the author juxtaposes his version of Jesus against that of his sect's rivals. For example John expounds on how his Christ is unknown or unrecognized by his rivals

1) prologue, verse 1:10: "He was in the world ... and the world did not know him. (οὐκ ἔγνω)"
2) John the Baptist comments 1:26, "Among you stands one you do not know (οὐκ οἴδατε) "
3) most pronounced in verses 7:40-42 when schisms (σχίσμα) are noted on the differing opinion of his providence and nature
Some of the crowd having heard these words said,
'This one is truly the prophet.'
Others said, 'This one is the Christ.'
But some said, 'Surely the Christ cannot come from Galilee?
Do not the scripture say that the Christ comes from the seed of David (σπέρματος Δαυίδ)
and from the village of Bethlehem where David was from?'
Therefore a division (σχίσμα) occurred in the crowd (ὄχλῳ) because of him

This is a good point to pause and comment. John's Christ is very different from Matthew's, as we can see he rejects the Bethlehem story and the Davidic descent. The Galilee origin I'd take with a grain of salt, as Jesus is depicted in this Gospel as always an outsider (e.g., a Judean to the Samaritan woman, a Samaritan at one point, and a Galilean at another), but it could be seen as reference to the Marcionite opening of Jesus descending into Capernaum, as opposed to being birthed in Bethlehem.

Now to the believing part, John addresses directly is in verse 5:43
I have come in the name of my father, and you do not receive me.
If another comes in his own name, that one you will receive.

In summary is this is a different Jesus than the one presented in the Synoptic Gospels, especially Matthew. John rejects Matthew's Jesus, sees him as another in his name. One can obviously flip that equation from the sect Matthew represents point of view. The same for the others. What we have reference to here in the mini-Apocalypse is a great diversity from even this early text on who Christ is. The Christ of the other sects is sometimes seen as an anti-Christ, but always as from their Jesus' perspective another "in My name."

Note, there are many more passages that spell out the differences in Jesus and the non-belief by those of other Jesus sects.We do not have to travel outside the internal Christian debate presented in the NT itself to find these others in his name. IMO looking for historical figures is futile and frankly irrelevant.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift

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Re: Many will come in my name.

Post by FransJVermeiren » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:51 pm

GakuseiDon wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:55 am

I see Vespasian has already been mentioned, but I wonder if Nero also fits the bill?

From "Ascension of Isaiah":
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... nsion.html

4.2. After it is consummated, Beliar the great ruler, the king of this world, will descend, who hath ruled it since it came into being; yea, he will descent from his firmament in the likeness of a man, a lawless king, the slayer of his mother: who himself (even) this king.
3. Will persecute the plant which the Twelve Apostles of the Beloved have planted. Of the Twelve one will be delivered into his hands.
4. This ruler in the form of that king will come and there will come and there will come with him all the powers of this world, and they will hearken unto him in all that he desires.
5. And at his word the sun will rise at night and he will make the moon to appear at the sixth hour.
6. And all that he hath desired he will do in the world: he will do and speak like the Beloved and he will say: "I am God and before me there has been none."
7. And all the people in the world will believe in him.
8. And they will sacrifice to him and they will serve him saying: "This is God and beside him there is no other."
9. And they greater number of those who shall have been associated together in order to receive the Beloved, he will turn aside after him.
10. And there will be the power of his miracles in every city and region.

One issue is that AoI may be way too late, so would require some early tradition about Nero who "will do and speak like the Beloved" to exist to influence the author of gMark. Otherwise the influence may have gone the other way.

ETA: Just rereading this: Was there a tradition of Nero causing the sun to rise at night and make the moon appear during the day, and having the power of his miracles in every city and region?
I believe the Ascension of Isaiah quote above has been broken off too early. Verse 12 goes as follows: And he will rule for three years and seven months and twenty-seven days.
Can this term of office be brought in line with Nero's rule? I don't believe so. This period of almost 44 months does not differ too much from the 42 months during great revolt in Revelation 11:2. As far as I know the exact duration of the war can't be determined, depending on the counting of some preparation and/or aftermath time or not, so both periods could refer to the war. If so, these almost 44 months refer to Vespasian and not to Nero. In the text nothing explicitly refers to Nero except the 'slayer of his mother' phrase. Maybe it has been interpolated? On the other hand, are there parts of this paragraph that could describe Vespasian (or his son Titus)? The 'lawless king' of verse 2 reminds of the 'man of lawlessness' of 2 Thessalonians 2:3, which IMO describes Titus. Vespasian's miracles (verse 10) have been discussed earlier in this thread.

The reversal of day and night are to be taken figuratively, of course. What circumstances could be described in this way? At the conflagration of Jerusalem there was bright light during the night, and during the day a huge cloud of smoke filtered the sun, causing a night-like atmosphere with a pale sun appearing as the moon. This happened 'at his word': Titus's command to burn down the city.

It is also remarkable that in this text the moon does appear at the sixth hour, while in the passion narratives in the gospels there was darkness over the land 'when the sixth hour had come' (Mark 15:33 and parallels).

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Re: Many will come in my name.

Post by DCHindley » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:04 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:49 am
If we assume that the suetonian "impulsore Chresto" was really an "impulsore Christo", then we have someone who claimed that the "Christ" was (coming?) in Rome under Claudius. Mark may allude to the evidence of messianic apocalypticism among the Christians in Rome as itself a sign of the his messianic apocalypticism. Even more so if the Suetonius's "Chrestus" is the same entity considered by Tacitus as founder of the Chrestiani. Since this would mean that the same messianic apocalypticism was still active in Rome under Nero.

This would place Mark more solidly in the 70 CE.

impulsore noun sg masc abl
impulsor, one who incites, an inciter, instigator

chresto noun sg masc dat, or
chresto noun sg masc abl

A. Chrestus , i, m.
I. [select] A mutilated form for Christus, Lact. 4, 7, 5; hence, Chrestiani, instead of Christiani, was used by many; cf. Tert. Apol. 3 fin.—
II. [select] A Jew at Rome under the emperor Claudius, Suet. Claud. 15; v. the commentt. in h. l.—
III. [select] A slave or freedman of Cicero, Cic. Fam. 2, 8, 1.

B. chreston , i, n., = χρηστόν (useful),
I. [select] a name by which the plant cichorium was sometimes called, Plin. 20, 8, 30, § 74.

I'd suggest that the 2nd option. In the past, Perseus had a longer definition giving the gist of what Pliny the Elder said of it, that the Magi used to make an ointment of chicory juice & oil, which they believed would make their magic spells irresistible to the demons, and for orators for the same reason. The implication, then, would be that the riots were instigated by magicians or orators who persuaded or influenced events by the power of the smell of chreston.

DCH

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Re: Many will come in my name.

Post by FransJVermeiren » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:19 pm

Below I extend my commentary on Ascension of Isaiah chapter 4 verse 5 to the preceding verse 4.

The Latin text of verse 4 goes as follows:
Hic angelus Berial in specie istius regis veniet et venient cum eo omnes potestates (exercitus) hujus mundi et audient eum in omnibus quae voluerit.

Above GukaseiDon provided the following translation. I suppose it is from the hand of R.H. Charles, based on the Greek version of the text (the last verse of the fragment surviving in Greek) provided on earlychristianwritings.com.
This ruler in the form of that king will come and there will come with him all the powers of this world, and they will hearken unto him in all that he desires.

Here follows my translation, based on the Latin text.
This angel*, Berial**, will come in the appearance of that king, and with him will come all those in power (of the army) of this world, and they shall obey his will in everything.

*Knibb, M.A. (in Charlesworth, The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha vol. 2, p. 161, note g) comments as follows: Or “ruler” (Gk actually has “ruler”). C, D, Gk omit “Beliar”.
** for Beliar or Belial

In this verse we see a relationship between the angel/ruler and the king (or emperor), and their ‘species’ is similar. Considering the rest of the verse, it seems quite probable that the king is Vespasian, and the ruler resembling him is Titus. (This time we do not see the ‘son of’ qualification, but the similarity of his appearance.) Titus comes (to Palestine) with his generals, and they obey him unconditionally. The ‘mundus’, like the Greek κοσμος, is the Roman empire.

Then comes verse 5: And at his word the sun will rise at night and he will make the moon to appear at the sixth hour.
With the interpretation of verse 4 above, we can clearly determine to whom the ‘his’ of verse 5 refers. It is on Titus’s command that the sun rises at night and the moon appears at noon, the sixth hour of the day. Now it also becomes clear to what the obedience of the generals ‘in omnibus’ refers. They even obey Titus in the most horrific, quasi unthinkable order he gives: the destruction of the city of Jerusalem by fire (and the temple a month before).

In summary the meaning of verse 4 and 5 is as follows: Titus, son of the emperor Vespasian, comes to Palestine with the generals of the Roman empire, who obey him unconditionally. At his command the city of Jerusalem is destroyed by fire.

One question: can someone show me the way to the Greek text of the part of Ascension of Isaiah that has survived in that language (2:4−4:4)?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Many will come in my name.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:45 pm

FransJVermeiren wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:19 pm
One question: can someone show me the way to the Greek text of the part of Ascension of Isaiah that has survived in that language (2:4−4:4)?
R. H. Charles' book has a handy synopsis. The Greek text starts here: https://archive.org/stream/cu3192401459 ... 3/mode/2up.
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Re: Many will come in my name.

Post by FransJVermeiren » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:11 am

Thank you very much, Ben.

May I consider the Greek text as supporting my interpretation above?

BDAG translates ίδἐα (Latin species) as appearance, and adds ‘with focus on physical features’ and also: ‘The rendering face probably fits Mt 28:3 v.l.’.
So we encounter a ruler with a face like the emperor.

BDAG also mentions that the verb ἔρχομαι (to come - Latin venire) can be used in a hostile sense: 'Come in a hostile sense Lk 11:22 P75 et al. (cp. X., Hellenica 6, 5, 43).'
The ruler is not simple coming (to Jerusalem), he is marching against it.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Many will come in my name.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:00 am

FransJVermeiren wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:11 am
Thank you very much, Ben.

May I consider the Greek text as supporting my interpretation above?
Here is my quick and very literal translation of the Greek of that final verse: "This (ru)ler in the form of of that king shall come, and all the powers of this world shall come...." The text breaks off there, apparently.

Yes, "coming" can sometimes be aggressive. I would not limit "form" to the face in this case, however. I doubt the sense is that he is taking the form of "that king" in countenance only.
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