Thracian Jannaeus
Re: Thracian Jannaeus
How much of this (if any) mirrors Atwill?
-
Charles Wilson
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am
Re: Thracian Jannaeus
I know Joe Atwill personally and consider him a friend. We developed our individual views separately and corresponded about them years ago. After reading his book I found that the Roman Thesis provided a container from which a Unified NT could be constructed. The one explained the other.
Joe considers the Roman Control of the material. I have considered the earlier Source Material. He has called his work "Forward Looking Typology". He calls what I see "Backward Looking Typology" since it looks back at the Stories that appear to have been composed before the Roman Control. Our views are not always in agreement. "We are Legion..." is perfectly transparent to me as meaning "Judea is captured and controlled by the Roman Legions". To Joe, it is perfectly transparent as meaning "Judea is captured and controlled by the wicked who are against Rome and its Legions". The two contradictory views are reconciled by the idea of "Transvaluation" which re-defined the opposition to Rome as a Rome-Loving, Tax-Paying populace (Which was the purpose of the Roman Creation to begin with).
We also developed agreement in areas independently. To Joe, "Eleazar" was the real "Jesus". To me, "Eleazar" was "The House of Eleazar", head of 16 of the 24 Mishmarot Courses. To me, you cannot understand what happened without understanding the function of the Priesthood and what happened to the Priesthood and how it was changed by the creation of the "Jesus Motif".
In short, you may grit your teeth when you read Caesar's Messiah, but always carry a notebook with you when you read it - There will always be something you can learn from it.
***
Now, are there any comments or ideas about a "Thracian God" that might have been behind the "Sun and Moon" verse of the SynApoc?
CW
-
Charles Wilson
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am
Re: New! Improved! Thracian Jannaeus: Mark 13
If Mark 13 is a Roman rewrite of Jannaeus' defeat at the hands of Demetrius Eucerus and later triumph to rule Jerusalem as King and High Priest, an exposition of Mark 13 may yield further insight into the Construction of the NT.
[1] And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!"
[2] And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down."
This, of course, is Postdiction. As such it is written after 70. The Temple and Jerusalem have already been destroyed.
[3] And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
[4] "Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign when these things are all to be accomplished?"
More Postdiction Fiction. Peter, a participant at the Slaughter of 4 BCE, is probably long dead. Elsewhere, the Disciples are ciphers for the Legions. Here are three names. Since this is a "private" conversation, one of these people told someone. "Who told?!??" Wrong question. Better: "Who would write in this manner?
Through verse 8:
[8] For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places, there will be famines; this is but the beginning of the birth-pangs.
With this, we begin the rewrite of Josephus, Antiquites..., 13, 13, 5 and surrounds. You choose which nation is against which nation and kingdom against which kingdom. I agree with our Poster Frans Vermeiren* that "earthquakes" may signify War Events.
Famines?
A…, 15, 15, 1:
“Mithridates Sinax, the ruler of the Parthians, who coming with a great number of forces, and besieging Demetrius in his encampment, into which they had driven them with their arrows, they compelled those that were with him by thirst to deliver up themselves...”
AND:
“When Antiochus was fallen, his army fled to the village Cana, where the greatest part of them perished by famine...”
[9] "But take heed to yourselves; for they will deliver you up to councils; and you will be beaten in synagogues; and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear testimony before them.
This ambiguous verse could describe supporters of Jannaeus as well as Roman supporters of the Flavians - and many others as well.
[10] And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.
This parallels Acts in many ways at the first Pentecost. Again, however, it is very vague unless you already believe.
[11] And when they bring you to trial and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say; but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.
Alert! Alert! Holy Spirit sighting! This is a marker for Domitian and as such, the featureless, bodiless Holy Spirit dates this to Post 97-ish. Make it 110-ish.
[12] And brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death;
[13] and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
J, A..., 13, 13, 5:
"As to Alexander, his own people were seditious against him; for at a festival which was then celebrated, when he stood upon the altar, and was going to sacrifice, the nation rose upon him, and pelted him with citrons [which they then had in their hands, because] the law of the Jews required that at the feast of tabernacles every one should have branches of the palm tree and citron tree; which thing we have elsewhere related..."
Hat tip to Josephus for 'splainin' about the citrons - "...which thing we have elsewhere related...". No foolin'.
"From thence he fled to Jerusalem, where, besides his other ill success, the nation insulted him, and he fought against them for six years, and slew no fewer than fifty thousand of them. And when he desired that they would desist from their ill-will to him, they hated him so much the more, on account of what had already happened; and when he had asked them what he ought to do, they all cried out, that he ought to kill himself. They also sent to Demetrius Eucerus, and desired him to make a league of mutual defense with them..."
The body count is at least 56,000 and climbing. "Brother against brother...".
Please read Antiquities, 13, Chapter 14.
"SO Demetrius came with an army, and took those that invited him, and pitched his camp near the city Shechem..."
Shechem is near the Temple at Gerizim. This is complete indirection by Josephus. Then:
"Demetrius trying to bring off the mercenaries that were with Alexander, because they were Greeks, and Alexander trying to bring off the Jews that were with Demetrius. However, when neither of them could persuade them so to do, they came to a battle, and Demetrius was the conqueror; in which all Alexander's mercenaries were killed, when they had given demonstration of their fidelity and courage. A great number of Demetrius's soldiers were slain also..."
"Now as Alexander fled to the mountains, six thousand of the Jews hereupon came together [from Demetrius] to him out of pity at the change of his fortune; upon which Demetrius was afraid, and retired out of the country; after which the Jews fought against Alexander, and being beaten, were slain in great numbers in the several battles which they had..."
Here we are. Take a deep breath. Read the last passage again. Demetrius has destroyed Jannaeus and his troops, both Jews and mercs. Jannaeus retreats. What happens? We are expected to believe that the Jews took "PITY" on Jannaeus and defected to him. Demetrius Eucerus, having defeated Jannaeus completely now BECOMES AFRAID. He "retires" out of the country.
Later, those who were with Jannaeus will be given the Citadels by Queen Salome and the language in the NT is telling. Jannaeus retreats "into the mountains" and those who are with him apparently come very close to complete starvation. Note the Logic and Sequence:
[14] "But when you see the desolating sacrilege set up where it ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;
Moffatt:
[14] But whenever you see the appalling Horror standing where he ought not...
DEMETRIUS EUCERUS HAS COMMITTED THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION. Eucerus was "hired" by the Jerusalem Politicos and the Jewish Mercenaries now witness an Abomination performed by a Greek, "standing where HE ought not".
With this, Jannaeus begins his march back to Jerusalem.
"and when he had shut up the most powerful of them in the city Bethome, he besieged them therein; and when he had taken the city, and gotten the men into his power, he brought them to Jerusalem, and did one of the most barbarous actions in the world to them; for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred of them to be crucified; and while they were living, he ordered the throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes..."
[17] And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days!
The Anchor Verse. There are other passages in other literature where women and children are brutalized and butchered but not with the Logic and Sequence.
[18] Pray that it may not happen in winter.
When did Jannaeus take Jerusalem?
Verses 19 – 23 appear to link what follows with The 4 BCE material. However, it also tastes like Roman spices were used in the cooking here. Insertion?
We now come to the interesting verse:
[24] "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light
If Mark 13 is patterned on Jannaeus, then this verse 24 is paired with "Thracian Jannaeus" with a completed meaning unknown to the Translators of Josephus. First, the Tribulation has passed: "...after THAT tribulation...".
Next in Sequence is our focus in this Thread:
"However, this barbarity seems to have been without any necessity, on which account he [Jannaeus] bare the name of a Thracian among the Jews (40) whereupon the soldiers that had fought against him, being about eight thousand in number, ran away by night, and continued fugitives all the time that Alexander lived; who being now freed from any further disturbance from them, reigned the rest of his time in the utmost tranquillity...."
The "(40)" is a note:
"This name Thracida, which the Jews gave Alexander, must, by the coherence, denote as barbarous as a Thracian, or somewhat like it; but what it properly signifies is not known."
Let us grant that Jannaeus was as “...barbarous as a Thracian”. Is there more to it? There might be if the Markan Author is writing from a Source and wishes to hide what is in front of him. Suppose that, in this “Original” was an epithet concerning Jannaeus that was comparing Jannaeus to Pagan, Unclean Worshipers. There are religions in the area that have the Cain and Abel motif. I am not aware, however, of any mention of Jannaeus killing his brother. There is the “Thracian Horseman” motif. There are religions that have Snake motifs that have the snake god swallowing the sun and the moon.
There would have to be certain steps in the epistemological chain here for this to be more certain. Nonetheless, there may be reason to believe that Josephus has written more Code that made it into Mark.
[25] and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
[26] And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
Roman rewrite concerning Titus.
[27] And then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
This, however, is a known Subject. It is from the description of the 4 BCE Slaughter, given in preparation for the 9 CE Passover. Peter, the child who saves the Priest in 4 BCE, comes back for the Mishmarot Rotation for the 9 CE Passover. He is an adult now and he tells of the repeat of the 4 BCE Passover where he saved the Priest. He believes that this time, God will send out his angels – children as he was – to save the Elect.
[28] "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near.
...and Passover has passed and the Flavians are in the ascendant.
Ditto for the next verses as well.
[32] "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
[33] Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.
[34] It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch.
[35] Watch therefore -- for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning --
[36] lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.
[37] And what I say to you I say to all: Watch."
The chapter ends with a summary of the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. All over the NT are Tell-Tales of this Story. See “The Ten Maidens” in Matthew 25, as an example.
Mark 4: 35 – 40 (RSV):
[35] On that day, when evening had come, he said to them, "Let us go across to the other side."
[36] And leaving the crowd, they took him with them in the boat, just as he was. And other boats were with him.
[37] And a great storm of wind arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that the boat was already filling.
[38] But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion; and they woke him and said to him, "Teacher, do you not care if we perish?"
[39] And he awoke and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, "Peace! Be still!" And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
[40] He said to them, "Why are you afraid? Have you no faith?"
Verses 39 – 40 are rewrites of this Symbolic Telling since the result of this was 3000+ being murdered.
Mark 5: 29 – 35 (RSV):
[25] And there was a woman who had had a flow of blood for twelve years,
[26] and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse.
[27] She had heard the reports about Jesus, and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment.
[28] For she said, "If I touch even his garments, I shall be made well."
[29] And immediately the hemorrhage ceased; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease.
The end of this is found in Mark 6: 54 – 56 (RSV):
[54] And when they got out of the boat, immediately the people recognized him,
[55] and ran about the whole neighborhood and began to bring sick people on their pallets to any place where they heard he was.
[56] And wherever he came, in villages, cities, or country, they laid the sick in the market places, and besought him that they might touch even the fringe of his garment; and as many as touched it were made well.
***
Mark 13 is seen as almost impenetrable and opaque. It need not be. It is a Roman rewrite of a Set of Stories that tell of the Mishmarot Priesthood. The Stories – the “Sources” - are not lost. The Stories are there, Transvalued, but in front of us. Always have been.
CW
[1] And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!"
[2] And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down."
This, of course, is Postdiction. As such it is written after 70. The Temple and Jerusalem have already been destroyed.
[3] And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
[4] "Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign when these things are all to be accomplished?"
More Postdiction Fiction. Peter, a participant at the Slaughter of 4 BCE, is probably long dead. Elsewhere, the Disciples are ciphers for the Legions. Here are three names. Since this is a "private" conversation, one of these people told someone. "Who told?!??" Wrong question. Better: "Who would write in this manner?
Through verse 8:
[8] For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places, there will be famines; this is but the beginning of the birth-pangs.
With this, we begin the rewrite of Josephus, Antiquites..., 13, 13, 5 and surrounds. You choose which nation is against which nation and kingdom against which kingdom. I agree with our Poster Frans Vermeiren* that "earthquakes" may signify War Events.
Famines?
A…, 15, 15, 1:
“Mithridates Sinax, the ruler of the Parthians, who coming with a great number of forces, and besieging Demetrius in his encampment, into which they had driven them with their arrows, they compelled those that were with him by thirst to deliver up themselves...”
AND:
“When Antiochus was fallen, his army fled to the village Cana, where the greatest part of them perished by famine...”
[9] "But take heed to yourselves; for they will deliver you up to councils; and you will be beaten in synagogues; and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear testimony before them.
This ambiguous verse could describe supporters of Jannaeus as well as Roman supporters of the Flavians - and many others as well.
[10] And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.
This parallels Acts in many ways at the first Pentecost. Again, however, it is very vague unless you already believe.
[11] And when they bring you to trial and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say; but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.
Alert! Alert! Holy Spirit sighting! This is a marker for Domitian and as such, the featureless, bodiless Holy Spirit dates this to Post 97-ish. Make it 110-ish.
[12] And brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death;
[13] and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
J, A..., 13, 13, 5:
"As to Alexander, his own people were seditious against him; for at a festival which was then celebrated, when he stood upon the altar, and was going to sacrifice, the nation rose upon him, and pelted him with citrons [which they then had in their hands, because] the law of the Jews required that at the feast of tabernacles every one should have branches of the palm tree and citron tree; which thing we have elsewhere related..."
Hat tip to Josephus for 'splainin' about the citrons - "...which thing we have elsewhere related...". No foolin'.
"From thence he fled to Jerusalem, where, besides his other ill success, the nation insulted him, and he fought against them for six years, and slew no fewer than fifty thousand of them. And when he desired that they would desist from their ill-will to him, they hated him so much the more, on account of what had already happened; and when he had asked them what he ought to do, they all cried out, that he ought to kill himself. They also sent to Demetrius Eucerus, and desired him to make a league of mutual defense with them..."
The body count is at least 56,000 and climbing. "Brother against brother...".
Please read Antiquities, 13, Chapter 14.
"SO Demetrius came with an army, and took those that invited him, and pitched his camp near the city Shechem..."
Shechem is near the Temple at Gerizim. This is complete indirection by Josephus. Then:
"Demetrius trying to bring off the mercenaries that were with Alexander, because they were Greeks, and Alexander trying to bring off the Jews that were with Demetrius. However, when neither of them could persuade them so to do, they came to a battle, and Demetrius was the conqueror; in which all Alexander's mercenaries were killed, when they had given demonstration of their fidelity and courage. A great number of Demetrius's soldiers were slain also..."
"Now as Alexander fled to the mountains, six thousand of the Jews hereupon came together [from Demetrius] to him out of pity at the change of his fortune; upon which Demetrius was afraid, and retired out of the country; after which the Jews fought against Alexander, and being beaten, were slain in great numbers in the several battles which they had..."
Here we are. Take a deep breath. Read the last passage again. Demetrius has destroyed Jannaeus and his troops, both Jews and mercs. Jannaeus retreats. What happens? We are expected to believe that the Jews took "PITY" on Jannaeus and defected to him. Demetrius Eucerus, having defeated Jannaeus completely now BECOMES AFRAID. He "retires" out of the country.
Later, those who were with Jannaeus will be given the Citadels by Queen Salome and the language in the NT is telling. Jannaeus retreats "into the mountains" and those who are with him apparently come very close to complete starvation. Note the Logic and Sequence:
[14] "But when you see the desolating sacrilege set up where it ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;
Moffatt:
[14] But whenever you see the appalling Horror standing where he ought not...
DEMETRIUS EUCERUS HAS COMMITTED THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION. Eucerus was "hired" by the Jerusalem Politicos and the Jewish Mercenaries now witness an Abomination performed by a Greek, "standing where HE ought not".
With this, Jannaeus begins his march back to Jerusalem.
"and when he had shut up the most powerful of them in the city Bethome, he besieged them therein; and when he had taken the city, and gotten the men into his power, he brought them to Jerusalem, and did one of the most barbarous actions in the world to them; for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred of them to be crucified; and while they were living, he ordered the throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes..."
[17] And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days!
The Anchor Verse. There are other passages in other literature where women and children are brutalized and butchered but not with the Logic and Sequence.
[18] Pray that it may not happen in winter.
When did Jannaeus take Jerusalem?
Verses 19 – 23 appear to link what follows with The 4 BCE material. However, it also tastes like Roman spices were used in the cooking here. Insertion?
We now come to the interesting verse:
[24] "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light
If Mark 13 is patterned on Jannaeus, then this verse 24 is paired with "Thracian Jannaeus" with a completed meaning unknown to the Translators of Josephus. First, the Tribulation has passed: "...after THAT tribulation...".
Next in Sequence is our focus in this Thread:
"However, this barbarity seems to have been without any necessity, on which account he [Jannaeus] bare the name of a Thracian among the Jews (40) whereupon the soldiers that had fought against him, being about eight thousand in number, ran away by night, and continued fugitives all the time that Alexander lived; who being now freed from any further disturbance from them, reigned the rest of his time in the utmost tranquillity...."
The "(40)" is a note:
"This name Thracida, which the Jews gave Alexander, must, by the coherence, denote as barbarous as a Thracian, or somewhat like it; but what it properly signifies is not known."
Let us grant that Jannaeus was as “...barbarous as a Thracian”. Is there more to it? There might be if the Markan Author is writing from a Source and wishes to hide what is in front of him. Suppose that, in this “Original” was an epithet concerning Jannaeus that was comparing Jannaeus to Pagan, Unclean Worshipers. There are religions in the area that have the Cain and Abel motif. I am not aware, however, of any mention of Jannaeus killing his brother. There is the “Thracian Horseman” motif. There are religions that have Snake motifs that have the snake god swallowing the sun and the moon.
There would have to be certain steps in the epistemological chain here for this to be more certain. Nonetheless, there may be reason to believe that Josephus has written more Code that made it into Mark.
[25] and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
[26] And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
Roman rewrite concerning Titus.
[27] And then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
This, however, is a known Subject. It is from the description of the 4 BCE Slaughter, given in preparation for the 9 CE Passover. Peter, the child who saves the Priest in 4 BCE, comes back for the Mishmarot Rotation for the 9 CE Passover. He is an adult now and he tells of the repeat of the 4 BCE Passover where he saved the Priest. He believes that this time, God will send out his angels – children as he was – to save the Elect.
[28] "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near.
...and Passover has passed and the Flavians are in the ascendant.
Ditto for the next verses as well.
[32] "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
[33] Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.
[34] It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch.
[35] Watch therefore -- for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning --
[36] lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.
[37] And what I say to you I say to all: Watch."
The chapter ends with a summary of the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. All over the NT are Tell-Tales of this Story. See “The Ten Maidens” in Matthew 25, as an example.
Mark 4: 35 – 40 (RSV):
[35] On that day, when evening had come, he said to them, "Let us go across to the other side."
[36] And leaving the crowd, they took him with them in the boat, just as he was. And other boats were with him.
[37] And a great storm of wind arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that the boat was already filling.
[38] But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion; and they woke him and said to him, "Teacher, do you not care if we perish?"
[39] And he awoke and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, "Peace! Be still!" And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
[40] He said to them, "Why are you afraid? Have you no faith?"
Verses 39 – 40 are rewrites of this Symbolic Telling since the result of this was 3000+ being murdered.
Mark 5: 29 – 35 (RSV):
[25] And there was a woman who had had a flow of blood for twelve years,
[26] and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse.
[27] She had heard the reports about Jesus, and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment.
[28] For she said, "If I touch even his garments, I shall be made well."
[29] And immediately the hemorrhage ceased; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease.
The end of this is found in Mark 6: 54 – 56 (RSV):
[54] And when they got out of the boat, immediately the people recognized him,
[55] and ran about the whole neighborhood and began to bring sick people on their pallets to any place where they heard he was.
[56] And wherever he came, in villages, cities, or country, they laid the sick in the market places, and besought him that they might touch even the fringe of his garment; and as many as touched it were made well.
***
Mark 13 is seen as almost impenetrable and opaque. It need not be. It is a Roman rewrite of a Set of Stories that tell of the Mishmarot Priesthood. The Stories – the “Sources” - are not lost. The Stories are there, Transvalued, but in front of us. Always have been.
CW