I would emphasize a point in Bob Price's view about an episode in Mark:
Giuseppe wrote: ↑
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:24 am
What was he getting at? The Messianic Secret, that's what. If, as evangelical apologists love to insist, Jesus had been ''claiming'' to be the Messiah, how can it be that none of the his fans thinks that's what he is? Plainly, Mark's Jesus has been leaving it to the imagination of the crowd. They are free to draw their own conclusions. That is how one faction happens to think Jesus is the resurrected John the Baptist, another believes they are following the returned Elijah, while a third thinks they are listening to, say, Jeremiah [I wonder, had you been able to take a poll, would we have heard cries of ''I am of John!'' ''I am of Elijah!'' ''I am of Jeremiah!" What, is Christ divided?] or Isaiah, maybe Ezekiel. [I'm guessing nobody thought he was Obadiah or Habakkuk.] Jesus does not even seem to expect any particular estimate from his fans. When none of the disciples agrees with the crowd about Jesus, and Peter ventures, ''You are the Christ'', Jesus tells him to keep it under his turban. It is not even clear that Jesus accepts Peter's declaration, unlike Matthew's version. I'd say this is what you'd call the Messianic Secret.
One thing Jesus is clear about: he is going to be arrested, tormented, crucified, and resurrected. Is this supposed to be a clarification of Jesus' messiahship? Or a denial of it? Six-six-six of one, half a dozen of the other. How many times have you heard it piously said that Jesus did think himself the Messiah but completely redefined it. Uh, you mean, in other words, he didn't think he was the Messiah? Because that's like saying, ''Yes, I'm a Socialist, but of course I mean that in the sense that I believe in free markets and private ownership of the means of production. Are you with me, comrades?'' Because if you define ''Messiah'' as a savior who surrenders to death on a Roman cross, rises again, and gets enthroned invisibly in heaven - you're not talking about the Jewish Messiah anymore. Unless you are the Kheshire Cat.
(p. 61-62, original cursive, my bold)
I don't think, against Price
, that Jesus was "clear" about the his future death etc. Note that this is even more true if the original end of proto-Mark was just after
the Transfiguration episode. The original crucifixion was the Transfiguration. It was in the same time a Crucifixion, a Baptism and an Ascension.
Hence, all that too much insistent emphasis, for 3 times, about Jesus predicting his own death and resurrection after 3 days, betrayes mere proto-Catholic interpolations meant to make it clear that Jesus died on earth and not
in outer space.
This doubt is raised even if the 3 predictions of his own death were genuine in proto-Mark. If Jesus predicted really the his own death, why do you ("Mark") insist on that fact obsessively for 3 times? I know why
you ("Mark") insists so much on that.
- Because you are polemizing against who denies that Jesus predicted the his own death on earth. Really, the Transfiguration episode seems alone a prediction of his own death in outer space, on a Cosmic Cross of Glory. Even there, it is not Jesus who talks about his future death in Jerusalem. That mere presumption is put on the mouth of Moses and Elijah, two losers.
- Or because you want to refer subtly the insider reader to the real place and time of the real crucifixion of Jesus: not ascending to the earthly Jerusalem (as the rest of story insists apparently), but ascending to celestial Jerusalem, i.e. in Heaven.
Hence Bob Price is totally wrong. The Messianic Secret is not the only enigma in proto-Mark. A even more great enigma is: did Jesus predict really
his own death on earth
Dear readers of this forum,
If there is a point of connection, a missing ring, between the "mythicist" belief of Paul and early Christians and the later Gospel "historicist" tradition, it is not only in the descending of Jesus already adult in Capernaum (=Sheol") as per the Marcion's incipit.
But it is also in these highly suspected three predictions by Jesus of his own death
, precisely and not coincidentially AFTER
that a Transfiguration episode had just occurred, one with all the air of being a real cosmic glorious crucifixion in Heaven.
Something of which the real embarrassing
to be eclipsed with three historicist
prophecies of death in Jerusalem.