Bob Price makes the same my point about Mark 8:27-30!!!

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Michael BG
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Re: Bob Price makes the same my point about Mark 8:27-30!!!

Post by Michael BG » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:02 am

Giuseppe, it is not clear from what you quoted that Robert Price is saying that the original saying was without verses 28 and 29ab:
28 And they answered, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.
29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
It seems to me Robert Price is also saying that Jesus didn’t see himself as the Messiah.

However, I think Tim Widowfield’s look at this passage and the related passage of Mk 6:14-16 along with what Robert Price wrote and what Gerd Theissen wrote in The Miracle Stories of the Early Christian Tradition sheds light on the issue https://vridar.org/2018/03/06/a-redacti ... -mark-828/

It seems that a case can be made that verse 28 could be based on the same saying as Mk 6:14-16 particularly what I have put in bold
[14] King Herod heard of it; for Jesus' name had become known. Some said, "John the baptizer has been raised from the dead; that is why these powers are at work in him."

[15] But others said, "It is Eli'jah." And others said, "It is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old."
[16] But when Herod heard of it he said, "John, whom I beheaded, has been raised."
However it seems reasonable to assume that the original Mark had both. It is also possible that the source only had a this with a different introduction.
Some said, "John the baptizer has been raised from the dead."

But others said, "It is Eli'jah." And others said, "It is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old."

Giuseppe
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Re: Bob Price makes the same my point about Mark 8:27-30!!!

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:05 am

Michael, you are correct on these points. And particularly about the fact that Price doesn't assume the interpolation of the references to Moses and Elijiah, even if the his emphasis about the Messianic Secret goes in that direction.

In the comment section of Tim's post I wrote:

for the sake of completeness, I should mention my source of the marcionite idea in full.

So Georges Ory (my free translation from French):

WHO IS JESUS? (Luke 9:7-9)

This passage is an insertion that interrupts the story about the Twelve’s mission.
Luke (like Mark) was expanded by verses 8-9 that Matthew does not know and which aims to make Christ and John reincarnations of Elijah. See also Luke 1:17, 4:25, 9:30.
Marcion does not contain verses 9-10. His text does not indicate Herod as Tetrarch, as Luke and Matthew do, but he agrees with Mark, who ignores this title.
The Evangelion is the only one against the three synoptics to teach us that everyone called Jesus ”Christ”, but his clumsy corrector left the phrase “some,said .. John, others Elijah, .. . or an ancient prophet” that is impossible if everyone called ”Christ” Jesus.
Marcion could not conceive the reincarnation of a prophet in Jesus. Of this story, Matthew and Mark gave a rather long continuation; the correctors added to the first episode ten verses and to the second 15 to tell the famous story of Herodias and the head of the Baptist brought to a plate. Marcion and Luke do not know this story.


(G. Ory, Marcion, my bold)
So the Messianic Secret for both Price and Ory is not, as per Wrede and Tim:
Jesus is the Jewish Christ but no people know this.
...but the following:
Is Jesus really the Jewish Christ or is he the Messiah of an Alien God?
Why would Marcion have preserved the references to Moses and Elijah, when Moses and Elijah work elsewhere again and again as mere references to the Torah?

So the merit of Ory (and of Price for that matter) is to give a different interpretation of the episode where Jesus is called Christ by the people (with Peter only reporting the opinion of the people: TU ES CHRISTUS).

What Wrede can't explain is that, even if the reader knows that Jesus in Mark is the Christ, well, even so, he (the reader) can't do sense of the real identity of Jesus "Christ". The mystery remains.

While if the reader knows in advance that Jesus is NOT the Christ, then the doubt is all for the actors in the story.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Bob Price makes the same my point about Mark 8:27-30!!!

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:19 am

I should admire Tim because this point made by him:

And so, ultimately, the question about whether the original Gospel of Mark (or the tradition behind the text) was really talking about the Marcionite Christ is a nonstarter, if only because we don’t know exactly what all Mark believed about the Messiah.
This is the true conclusion. We (moderns) know only from Mark that the people (what the people believed about Jesus) is 100% WRONG, 100% ANTI-CHRISTIAN.

We moderns can't never know what "Mark" (author) believed really.

So a marcionite may accept the gospel of Mark only if the people (and not only Peter) believed that Jesus was the Jewish Christ.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Bob Price makes the same my point about Mark 8:27-30!!!

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:47 am

Note that according to the traditional interpretation of the episode of Caesarea Philippi: the people is more distant from the truth (about Jesus) than Peter, even if Peter himself is still far from truth. So Peter ("TU ES CHRISTUS") works someway as mediator between the two extremities.

While in the Ory's interpretation of the presumed version of proto-Mark there is a radical opposition between the people/Peter's view ("TU ES CHRISTUS") and the truth about Jesus (that he is NOT the Christ).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Michael BG
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Re: Bob Price makes the same my point about Mark 8:27-30!!!

Post by Michael BG » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:05 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:05 am
In the comment section of Tim's post I wrote:
for the sake of completeness, I should mention my source of the marcionite idea in full.

So Georges Ory (my free translation from French):

WHO IS JESUS? (Luke 9:7-9)

This passage is an insertion that interrupts the story about the Twelve’s mission.
Luke (like Mark) was expanded by verses 8-9 that Matthew does not know and which aims to make Christ and John reincarnations of Elijah. See also Luke 1:17, 4:25, 9:30.
Marcion does not contain verses 9-10. His text does not indicate Herod as Tetrarch, as Luke and Matthew do, but he agrees with Mark, who ignores this title.
The Evangelion is the only one against the three synoptics to teach us that everyone called Jesus ”Christ”, but his clumsy corrector left the phrase “some,said .. John, others Elijah, .. . or an ancient prophet” that is impossible if everyone called ”Christ” Jesus.
Marcion could not conceive the reincarnation of a prophet in Jesus. Of this story, Matthew and Mark gave a rather long continuation; the correctors added to the first episode ten verses and to the second 15 to tell the famous story of Herodias and the head of the Baptist brought to a plate. Marcion and Luke do not know this story.


(G. Ory, Marcion, my bold)
I have huge problems with your quote from Georges Ory, he seems to read more into verses 8 and 9 than I think are there. Also he seems to think because a story or section is missing this means the author doesn’t know the story! It also seems he thinks the Evangelion came before Mark. I can agree that Mk 6:14-16 is an insertion which interrupts the story about the Twelves’ mission. However, coupled with Mk 6:17-29 it looks like a known Marcan feature to me, which Marcion’s gospel and Luke's while not including the main part has kept enough for us to see he is using the longer Marcan version.

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