Pagan Parallels: Achilles Heel of Christianity

[stephan happy huller]

Like eggs. The fact that eggs come in twelve doesn't mean that they are connected with the disciples of Christ.

[Bernard Muller]

"twelve" appears more than one hundred times in the Old Testament. Is each occurrence inspired by the Zodiac?

Cordially, Bernard

[DCHindley]

"twelve" appears more than one hundred times in the Old Testament. Is each occurrence inspired by the Zodiac?

Cordially, Bernard

Perhaps it is significant that the zodiac begins with Bull ...

[DCHindley]

Allegro offers a different etymology for Lazarus:

But to return to our “scabby” mushroom. As one might expect, the flaking of the surface of the Amanita muscaria, with its “wart”—like particles of white skin against the red of the cap, reminded the myth- makers of sufferers from leprosy and other skin diseases. So we should be prepared to find in biblical stories concerned with lepers allusions to the mushroom. In the Gospels people so afflicted are commonly mentioned, but one “ulcerous” character claims our special attention, mainly because of his name, Lazarus (Luke 16 :19—31).

On the face of it, “Lazarus” is simply a form of the Old Testament name Eleazar.50 But here, as so often with New Testament names, we have in an approximation to a biblical name an epithet of the mushroom. What the New Testament cryptographer had in mind here in his “Lazarus” was the word we know in English as “Lazuli”, usually found in conjunction with “Lapis” (“stone”) to describe a blue mineral containing flecks of gold, as Pliny describes it, adding that it can be “tinged with purple”.51

Our name “Lazuli” comes from the Persian Lazhurward, and, as we can now trace it back, ultimately from a Sumerian phrase *AR-ZAL-DARA, “brightly shining variegated (stone)”. The Persian form is simply a jumbled form of the Sumerian, and from it Semitic derived its Lazrad on which form the New Testament word-play with “Lazarus” was made.52

To the writer of the Gospel the significance of the name lay in the speckled, purplish colour of the Amanita muscaria,
to which, in his description of the unfortunate beggar, he added the “scabby, ulcerous” appearance given by the warty surface of the cap: “moreover, the dogs came and licked his sores” (v. 21). [Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, 128-129]

If the famous DSS scholar John Allegro says it, it MUST be true, and Diane Murdoch must therefor be WRONG. Amen ...

Maximos, why do you think pagan parallels are the Archilles Heel of Christianity? Can you give the clearest case of a pagan parallel which represents the strongest one as an Archilles Heel? Please give an exact example, rather than a wall of text.

If I can try to help out Maximos here, one of the strongest examples of pagan parallels is the derivation of the Lazarus story from Osiris. All the characters have analogous roles, indicating that John used this story as a way to secretly give new life to the old Egyptian deities, as a statement of respect. Lazarus = Osiris; Christ = Horus; Mary = Isis; Martha = Nephthys.

The Achilles Heel in this case is the demonstration that borrowing from Egypt provides a far more plausible explanation for the text than an origin in an actual historical Lazarus. But it is only an Achilles Heel for literalism, not for allegorical Christianity. And I don't think Achilles Heel is a good metaphor, since literalism is weak all over, not just at the heel. Prod anywhere with the slightest commitment to robust evidence and the whole house of cards falls down.

[neilgodfrey]

. . . one of the strongest examples of pagan parallels is the derivation of the Lazarus story from Osiris. All the characters have analogous roles, indicating that John used this story as a way to secretly give new life to the old Egyptian deities, as a statement of respect. Lazarus = Osiris; Christ = Horus; Mary = Isis; Martha = Nephthys.

The Achilles Heel in this case is the demonstration that borrowing from Egypt provides a far more plausible explanation for the text than an origin in an actual historical Lazarus. But it is only an Achilles Heel for literalism, not for allegorical Christianity. And I don't think Achilles Heel is a good metaphor, since literalism is weak all over, not just at the heel. Prod anywhere with the slightest commitment to robust evidence and the whole house of cards falls down.

A declaration that Lazarus = Osiris; Christ = Horus; Mary = Isis; Martha = Nephthys is not "a demonstration" that John borrowed from the Egyptian deities. It is a speculation. Other explanations need to be studied and compared with this one. I agree that almost any other explanation is more plausible than one in which someone really was raised from being dead 3 or 4 days.

But let's say for the sake of argument that such a comparative study does lead one to think the probability is high that the characters and story did derive from the Egyptian gods. It does not follow that "John used this story as a way to secretly give new life to the old Egyptian deities, as a statement of respect." There really are other explanations. Some would say they are even more plausible.

For example, at least one classicist argues that elsewhere the author of this gospel is modeling his Jesus on the Greek god Dionysus. He does not conclude that the author was trying to reinvigorate the worship of Dionysus in a new guise, as a mark of some sort of respect for Dionysus. Rather, he argues that he is making allusions to the pagan deity to demonstrate the superiority of Jesus to the pagan gods.

Such an explanation is consistent with ancient literary practice. For example, Virgil would try to show the superiority of Rome to Greece by modeling his hero, Aeneas, on Greek heroes such as Odysseus. The point was not to lead readers to believe a revivified Odysseus was responsible for Rome, but to show the superiority of Aeneas over the Greek hero.

We see that sort of thing very often in the ancient literature, including biblical literature.

So it would be a more plausible explanation -- if we did conclude that John was inspired by the Egyptian deities in the way he composed the Lazarus scene -- to argue that he wanted to show the superiority of Christianity to the Egyptian religious ideas.

[Roger Pearse]

"twelve" appears more than one hundred times in the Old Testament. Is each occurrence inspired by the Zodiac?

Cordially, Bernard

Perhaps it is significant that the zodiac begins with Bull ...

See! I told you it was Mithras!!

[Maximos]

"twelve" appears more than one hundred times in the Old Testament. Is each occurrence inspired by the Zodiac?

Cordially, Bernard

Biblical examples:

The 12 Princes of Ishmael (Gen 17:20)
The 12 Sons of Jacob (Gen 35:22)
The 12 Tribes of Israel (Gen 49:28)
The 12 Prophets and Kings of Israel
The 12 Wells of Water (Exd 15:27)
The 12 Pillars of the Lord (Exd 24:4)
The 12 Stones of the Breastplate (Exd 39:14)
The 12 Cakes of the Tabernacle (Lev 24:5)
The 12 Princes of Israel (Num 1:44)
The 12 Oxen of the Tabernacle (Num 7:3)
The 12 Chargers of Silver, Bowls of Silver and Spoons of Gold (Num 7:84)
The 12 Bullocks, Rams, Lambs and Kids of the Offering (Num 7:87)
The 12 Rods of the Princes of Israel (Num 17:6)
The 12 Stones of Joshua (Jos 4:8)
The 12 Cities (Jos 18:24, 19:25, 21:7, 21:40)
The 12 Judges of Israel (Jdg 3, 4, 6, 10, 12, 13)
The 12 Pieces of the Concubine (Jdg 19:29)
The 12 Servants of David (2 Sa 2:15)
The 12 Officers of Solomon (1 Ki 4:7)
The 12 Lions of Solomon (1 Ki 10:20)
The 12 Pieces of Jeroboam‘s Garment (1 Ki 11:30)
The 12 Stones of Elijah (1 Ki 18:31)
The 12 Bronze Bulls of Solomon (Jer 52:20)
The 12 Disciples/Apostles of Jesus (Mt 10:1-2)
The 12 Baskets of Bread (Mt 14:20)
The 12 Thrones in Heaven (Mt 19:28)
The 12 Legions of Angels (Mt 26:53)
The 12 Patriarchs of Israel (Acts 7:8)
The 12 Stars of the Woman‘s Crown (Rev 12:1)
The 12 Gates, Angels and Pearls of Holy Jerusalem (Rev 21:12, 21)
The 12 Fruits of the Tree of Life (Rev 22:2)

Pagan examples:

The 12 Ahhazu or Demons of the Sumerians
The 12 Tablets/Adventures of Gilgamesh
The 12 Gods of Egypt
The 12 Divisions of the Tuat
The 12 Companions of Horus/Osiris
The 12 Olympian Gods
The 12 Tasks of Hercules
The 12 Daughters of Priam
The 12 Children of Amphion and Niobe
The 12 Daughters of Boeotia and Metope
The 12 Gods of the Romans and Etruscans
The 12 Sons of the Etruscan Mother Goddess
The 12 Shields of Mars
The 12 Altars of Janus
The 12 Aeons of the Gnostics
The 12 Devas of India
The 12 Names of the Indian Sun God Surya
The 12 Terrifying Aspects of Shiva
The 12 Adityas of the Indian Mother of Worlds
The 12 Labors of the Virgin-Born Arjuna
The 12 Generals of Ahura-Mazda
The 12 Aesir of the Norse
The 12 Berserkers of the Norse
The 12 Mountains of Ebhlenn
The 12 Horse-Children of Boreas
The 12 White Horses of the Polish Sun God
The 12 Stones of Cenn Cruiach
The 12 Rivers of the Elivagar
The 12 Horses and Hounds of Gwydion
The 12 Moons of China
The 12 Generals of the Japanese Divine Physician
The 12 Yiyantsinni of the Navaho, Pueblo, Iroquois
The 12 First People of the Navajo

- The Twelve in the Bible and Ancient Mythology

[Roger Pearse]

"twelve" appears more than one hundred times in the Old Testament. Is each occurrence inspired by the Zodiac?

Cordially, Bernard

Biblical examples:

The 12 Princes of Ishmael (Gen 17:20)
The 12 Sons of Jacob (Gen 35:22)
The 12 Tribes of Israel (Gen 49:28)
The 12 Prophets and Kings of Israel
The 12 Wells of Water (Exd 15:27)
The 12 Pillars of the Lord (Exd 24:4)
The 12 Stones of the Breastplate (Exd 39:14)
The 12 Cakes of the Tabernacle (Lev 24:5)
The 12 Princes of Israel (Num 1:44)
The 12 Oxen of the Tabernacle (Num 7:3)
The 12 Chargers of Silver, Bowls of Silver and Spoons of Gold (Num 7:84)
The 12 Bullocks, Rams, Lambs and Kids of the Offering (Num 7:87)
The 12 Rods of the Princes of Israel (Num 17:6)
The 12 Stones of Joshua (Jos 4:8)
The 12 Cities (Jos 18:24, 19:25, 21:7, 21:40)
The 12 Judges of Israel (Jdg 3, 4, 6, 10, 12, 13)
The 12 Pieces of the Concubine (Jdg 19:29)
The 12 Servants of David (2 Sa 2:15)
The 12 Officers of Solomon (1 Ki 4:7)
The 12 Lions of Solomon (1 Ki 10:20)
The 12 Pieces of Jeroboam‘s Garment (1 Ki 11:30)
The 12 Stones of Elijah (1 Ki 18:31)
The 12 Bronze Bulls of Solomon (Jer 52:20)
The 12 Disciples/Apostles of Jesus (Mt 10:1-2)
The 12 Baskets of Bread (Mt 14:20)
The 12 Thrones in Heaven (Mt 19:28)
The 12 Legions of Angels (Mt 26:53)
The 12 Patriarchs of Israel (Acts 7:8)
The 12 Stars of the Woman‘s Crown (Rev 12:1)
The 12 Gates, Angels and Pearls of Holy Jerusalem (Rev 21:12, 21)
The 12 Fruits of the Tree of Life (Rev 22:2)

Pagan examples:

The 12 Ahhazu or Demons of the Sumerians
The 12 Tablets/Adventures of Gilgamesh
The 12 Gods of Egypt
The 12 Divisions of the Tuat
The 12 Companions of Horus/Osiris
The 12 Olympian Gods
The 12 Tasks of Hercules
The 12 Daughters of Priam
The 12 Children of Amphion and Niobe
The 12 Daughters of Boeotia and Metope
The 12 Gods of the Romans and Etruscans
The 12 Sons of the Etruscan Mother Goddess
The 12 Shields of Mars
The 12 Altars of Janus
The 12 Aeons of the Gnostics
The 12 Devas of India
The 12 Names of the Indian Sun God Surya
The 12 Terrifying Aspects of Shiva
The 12 Adityas of the Indian Mother of Worlds
The 12 Labors of the Virgin-Born Arjuna
The 12 Generals of Ahura-Mazda
The 12 Aesir of the Norse
The 12 Berserkers of the Norse
The 12 Mountains of Ebhlenn
The 12 Horse-Children of Boreas
The 12 White Horses of the Polish Sun God
The 12 Stones of Cenn Cruiach
The 12 Rivers of the Elivagar
The 12 Horses and Hounds of Gwydion
The 12 Moons of China
The 12 Generals of the Japanese Divine Physician
The 12 Yiyantsinni of the Navaho, Pueblo, Iroquois
The 12 First People of the Navajo

- The Twelve in the Bible and Ancient Mythology

"twelve" appears more than one hundred times in the Old Testament. Is each occurrence inspired by the Zodiac?

[stephan happy huller]

A better question is - to follow Andrew's point - why is the connection with Mithras needed? Surely if the Jewish people already developed the identification what do the other religions have to do with this? Why is this necessary and how is this association proven?

[neilgodfrey]

Maxmos helpfully supplies this link: - The Twelve in the Bible and Ancient Mythology.

Here we see a classic case of flawed reasoning, confusion of terms and hostile tendentiousness.

Murdock begins:

Were the 12 Tribes of Israel Based on the Zodiac?

This is a subject about which there is much disinformation, including attempts to claim that the zodiac postdated the founding of the Israelite nation with its 12 tribes and that, hence, the numbering of the tribes could not be based on the 12 zodiacal signs, as has been suggested by many people since ancient times.

From the get-go we have alternative viewpoints labeled "disinformation". Others are "attempting to claim" (as if there is something less than fully objective or above-board in their efforts) that the zodiac postdated the founding of Israel. Murdock's point is that all of this "disinformation" and "attempted claims" come together to argue that the number of tribes of Israel could not be based on the 12 zodiacal signs.

Murdock brings in her first witnesses:

Testimony of Josephus and Philo

The claim that the 12 tribes of Israel were identified with the 12 signs of the zodiac is spelled out clearly by the ancient Jewish writers Philo and Josephus, during the first century. During the first century BCE, Diodorus Siculus identified the 12 tribes with the 12 months.

Now that's a slightly different claim from the one Murdock began with. Murdock here says that Josephus and Philo "clearly" "spell out" the "claim" that the 12 tribes "were identified with the 12 signs of the zodiac".

But the original claim was that the 12 tribes were "based on" the zodiacal signs. Existing tribes being "identified with" zodiacal signs is not the same thing. But I could imagine the average reader might well be led along through the argument without being aware of the significance of this change in wording, and in the end mistakenly think that Murdock has supplied evidence for something when she has not.

Continuing:

As I relate in Christ in Egypt (261):

See Exodus 39:9-14: "...they made the breastplate... And they set in it four rows of stones... And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve...according to the twelve tribes."

As Josephus says (Antiquities, 3.8 ): "And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning." (Josephus, 75.)

Earlier than Josephus, Philo ("On the Life of Moses," 12) had made the same comments regarding Moses: "Then the twelve stones on the breast, which are not like one another in colour, and which are divided into four rows of three stones in each, what else can they be emblems of, except of the circle of the zodiac?" (Philo, 99.)

As we can see, by the first century it was well known that the theme of "the 12" was astrological in nature.

Look at what Josephus and Philo are quoted as saying. They do not support Murdock's original claim that the 12 tribes were (historically according to tradition) "based on" the zodiac. Josephus and Philo are saying that they, in their own day, they themselves as first century authors, see zodiacal symbolism in the 12 tribes of Israel.

That is not the same thing at all as saying that they believed the 12 tribes "were based on the zodiac" as if that were their origin. They are only saying they symbolize the zodiac. And even if they did believe that they 12 tribes originated as a result of some plan or design to reflect the zodiac, that would tell us nothing about the real origin of the tribes. It would only tell us what first century writers like Philo and Josephus thought.

Again we find that no alternative hypotheses are entertained. I find it far more plausible that the 12 tribes were a literary construct (from the Persian or Hellenistic times) based on Greek writings. There are a significant number of associations between the Pentateuch/Primary History and Greek works such as those of Herodotus and Plato. One hypothesis is that the Primary History (including the Pentateuch) was composed with Greek ideals in mind -- one of those was that the ideal state consisted of 12 tribes.

But I'm speaking here as a minimalist and I know not many will go that far, certainly not without a lot more evidence than I can give here. But there are yet more plausible explanations for the origin of the idea of the 12 tribes. One might even ask if the zodiac division into 12 (as opposed to 13, or 24, etc) was itself inspired by an interest in the magical powers of numbers: 3 and 4 relate to both 7 and 12. And one could go on and on with alternatives . . . .