Pilate and Josephus

[maryhelena]

But surely the question is 'how do we know what we know (or 'think we know')? I don't see you dealing with any of this EVER. How can you claim to have superior knowledge to the inherited tradition when you don't demonstrate anywhere that you understand why they believe what they believe how the truth (or claimed truth) was established? I find this stunning. It's almost as if you feel its good enough to attack the status quo in order to justify establishing another myth. Isn't it possible or even more likely that we will never know when Jesus was originally supposed to have lived and been active (I phrase it this way because I want to sidestep your interest in the historicity of Jesus which is totally irrelevant to the discussion)?

Easy - give up we can't ever know...I have no problem with that approach. However, for those who do want to have answers that satisfy them - those who want to know for the sake of knowing - then I'm afraid the search will continue...

[Secret Alias]

Again I ask:

So you think that there is reason to doubt that Jesus was understood to have lived at the time of Pilate. I see the exact opposite. I think the evidence says ALL CHRISTIANS thought Jesus lived at the time of Pilate. What is the strong evidence to think otherwise?

As I noted earlier, the question of whether or not this perception or understanding was historically accurate is another level of complexity. But surely all Christians thought Jesus lived at the time of Pilate, right?

[maryhelena]

A gospel story about Jesus crucified under Pilate. Whether the Jesus figure is historical or literary the gospel

So you think that there is reason to doubt that Jesus was understood to have lived at the time of Pilate. I see the exact opposite. I think the evidence says ALL CHRISTIANS thought Jesus lived at the time of Pilate. What is the strong evidence to think otherwise?

There is no evidence to suggest he did. Just because ALL CHRISTIANS though Jesus lived at the time of Pilate means absolutely nothing at all.

[Secret Alias]

But surely it matters that all Christians thought that. I am disappointed. I thought you had some interesting source for dating Jesus at another time. How do you then make the leap that Jesus lived at another time? Just curious. All the Christians thought Jesus lived at the time of Pilate but I think Jesus lived at another time doesn't sound like a particularly strong argument. Am I missing something?

[maryhelena]

But surely it matters that all Christians thought that. I am disappointed. I thought you had some interesting source for dating Jesus at another time. How do you then make the leap that Jesus lived at another time? Just curious.

Goodness me - sometimes, Stephan, I don't think you actually read what I write. You won't find anything that I have written that 'Jesus lived at another time'

Let me repeat - the Jesus figure in the gospel story crucified under Pilate is not a historical figure. The Jesus figure in the gospel story crucified under Pilate is a literary figure.

[Secret Alias]

But now all you've done is pushed to the side what you wrote and put forward a restatement of your belief. The question is what early Christians believed and you said it doesn't matter what they believed you know he never existed apparently and I turned that around to a rather funny sounding argument. Then you wrote:

There is no evidence to suggest he did (live at the time of Pilate).

But surely there is lots of evidence to suggest he did. Josephus, the gospels, the Church Fathers. That's a lot of evidence. It certainly suggests he lived at that time. Whether he did or not is another question, right? My point is that there is always two different questions - whether or not Jesus lived or existed and what the perception of Christians was as to when he lived or existed (they certain thought he existed). The former question is likely unknowable but the latter is certainly relevant to any question about the beliefs of early Christians and Christianity and is a knowable commodity.

[maryhelena]

But now all you've done is pushed to the side what you wrote and put forward your belief. The question is what early Christians believed and you said it doesn't matter what they believed and I turned that around to a rather funny sounding argument. Then you wrote:

There is no evidence to suggest he did.

But surely there is lots of evidence to suggest he did. Josephus, the gospels, the Church Fathers. That's a lot of evidence. It certainly suggests he lived at that time. Whether he did or not is another question, right?

If you find that Josephus, the gospels, the Church Fathers, suggest a historical Jesus be my guest....

I don't find accounts by Josephus and the gospels suggestive of a historical Jesus. That Church Fathers read the gospels as being about a historical Jesus - well, all I can say is what an bizarre legacy they have given the world...

[Secret Alias]

If you find that Josephus, the gospels, the Church Fathers, suggest a historical Jesus be my guest

But you've confounded the question again. You were speaking about the threshold of the evidence and whether or not it was enough to 'suggest' that Jesus lived at the time of Pilate and my answer is of course it does. The question of whether or not Jesus really did live at that time or any time is a separate question. But clearly it would not be overstating the state of the evidence to say that all early Christians thought Jesus lived or existed at the time of Pilate. Surely you have to agree.

[maryhelena]

If you find that Josephus, the gospels, the Church Fathers, suggest a historical Jesus be my guest

But you've confounded the question again. You were speaking about the threshold of the evidence and whether or not it was enough to 'suggest' that Jesus lived at the time of Pilate and my answer is of course it does. The question of whether or not Jesus really did live at that time or any time is a separate question.

Don't confuse the story with history. It's the story that has Jesus crucified under Pilate. If one wants to read that as history - then so be it....The story does not 'suggest' - the story tells it as the story is...no suggestion, that's the story....

[Secret Alias]

But surely that's the starting point.