dying and rising gods

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moses
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dying and rising gods

Post by moses »

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13890
Within the confines of what was then the Roman Empire, long before and during the dawn of Christianity, there were many dying-and-rising gods. And yes, they were gods—some even half-god, half-human, being of divine or magical parentage, just like Jesus (John 1:1-18; Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-35; Philippians 2:6-8 & Romans 8:3). And yes, they died. And were dead. And yes, they were then raised back to life; and lived on, even more powerful than before
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DCHindley
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Re: dying and rising gods

Post by DCHindley »

moses wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:29 am https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13890
Within the confines of what was then the Roman Empire, long before and during the dawn of Christianity, there were many dying-and-rising gods. And yes, they were gods—some even half-god, half-human, being of divine or magical parentage, just like Jesus (John 1:1-18; Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-35; Philippians 2:6-8 & Romans 8:3). And yes, they died. And were dead. And yes, they were then raised back to life; and lived on, even more powerful than before
Sounds like Frankenstein's monster!

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MrMacSon
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Re: dying and rising gods

Post by MrMacSon »

Carrier has not mentioned a significant dying and rising god: Serapis (aka Sarapis)
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rakovsky
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Re: dying and rising gods

Post by rakovsky »

Tammuz/ Haddad Rimmon

Horus?
Osiris?

Ganesh?

The Hindu deities beheaded by Shiva and Rudra? (Iirc one of them had a name starting with D)

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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rakovsky
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Re: dying and rising gods

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My opinion is that according to a careful reading of Zechariah 12, it is said that people of Judah thrust God through or pierced Him, and there will be mourning comparable to that for the pagan dying and rising god Tammuz AKA Haddad Rimmon.

This was not a result that I expected, but is the result of academic research. Otherwise, what else does Haddad Rimmon refer to, but another regional name for the god Tammuz, who was known to be ritually mourned?

Ezekiel 8
14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

Zechariah 12
י וְשָׁפַכְתִּי עַל-בֵּית דָּוִיד וְעַל יוֹשֵׁב יְרוּשָׁלִַם, רוּחַ חֵן וְתַחֲנוּנִים, וְהִבִּיטוּ אֵלַי, אֵת אֲשֶׁר-דָּקָרוּ; וְסָפְדוּ עָלָיו, כְּמִסְפֵּד עַל-הַיָּחִיד, וְהָמֵר עָלָיו, כְּהָמֵר עַל-הַבְּכוֹר.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

יא בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא, יִגְדַּל הַמִּסְפֵּד בִּירוּשָׁלִַם, כְּמִסְפַּד הֲדַדְרִמּוֹן, בְּבִקְעַת מְגִדּוֹן.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: dying and rising gods

Post by Joseph D. L. »

I don't know about Vedic gods, but Osiris and Horus were definitely gods of resurrection in Egypt.

Horus of the Netherworld is born from Osiris in the underworld, is killed by Set and mummified along with his father, and both rise to life with Re at dawn. This is from the Middle Kingdom text, Creation of the Solar Disk, part of the Books of the Earth cycle.
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Re: dying and rising gods

Post by Ethan »

The " Valley of Megiddo " is πεδίῳ Μαγεδων or ἁρμός Μαγεδων or Ἁρμαγεδών (Armageddon) * Μαγδαληνή (Magdalēnē)

This is known today as Beqaa Valley, also the Valley of Baca (Weeping)Fig-mulberry Trees)(Psalms 84:6)

Deuteronomy 8:7-6 [ Beqaa]
For the LORD thy God bringeth thee into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and depths that spring out of Beqaa-valleys and hills, A land of wheat, and barley, and vines, and fig trees, and pomegranates(Rimmon); a land of oil olive, and honey


Origin of Tammuz
Bakah [בָּכָה] means 'Weep / Cry ' and the synonyms are Dama[דָּמַע], Dimah[דִּמְעָה] " Weeping" and Dema[דֶּמַע] " Juice " , this is the root meaning
of the name Tammuz [תַּמּוּז] and Dionysus [Δνυσ -תַּמּוּז], also known as Bacchus[ בָּכָה] and Iacchus [ God of Crying , epithet of Dionysus] .

The reason Tammuz falls between June-July , it coincides with the Mulberry Harvest, And the Mulberry is called Bakah[בָּכָה] "to weep" from the blood-like tears which the pressed berries pour forth.

Ezekiel 8:14 - Women weeping (בָּכָה) for Tammuz.
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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Re: dying and rising gods

Post by Ethan »

The reason for the name " Megiddo " , the root word is גָּדַע "Gada" (cut down) , also known as Gideon and Gidom, this word appears in Judges 20:45 in the wilderness of Rimmon, Gidom is written Γεδαν " Gedan " , the root being κόπτω (Koptw) " Cut down/mourn" .

In Zechariah 12:11 , weeping is Mcaphad [מספד] from Caphad "to wail, lament, mourn" and the Septuagint word is κοπετὸς ( Kopetos) κοπετὸς > κπτ > סָפַד and Megiddo in the Greek version of Zechariah is translated ' ἐκκοπτομένου deriving from κόπτω 'cut down/mourn'. and thus it translates " the Valley of weeping" [בעמק הבכא] [ Psalms 84:6] .

The traditional method for extracting the juices (tears) from berries & grapes is too stomp them with the feet in a Vat
Bakah [בָּכָה] " Weeping"
Baqah [בָּקַע] " break down
Dimah(דִּמְעָה) " Weeping" .
Damah(דָּמָה) "beaten down"

This explains why Jesus was beaten.

The Weeping tree in Ovid.
Thisbe returns, eager to tell Pyramus what had happened to her, but she finds Pyramus' dead body under the shade of the mulberry tree. Thisbe, after a brief period of mourning, stabs herself with the same sword. In the end, the gods listen to Thisbe's lament, and forever change the colour of the mulberry fruits into the stained colour to honour the forbidden love.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramus_and_Thisbe
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
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rakovsky
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Re: dying and rising gods

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In ancient Hindu mythology, there was a belief that there was a "first person", the cosmic man, Purusha, who was killed by the gods and whose parts were used to create the cosmos. This shows up in the floorplan of Hindu temples, where different corners represent different body parts of the man where he is kneeling in his pre-mutilated state, like the head. The legend also shows up in the stories of Shiva and Rudra beheading Ganesh and another figure. Ganesh got an elephant's head to replace what he lost. These two beheaded deities had life after their beheading because of the new heads.

This legend shows up in Greek myths about an ancient giant who was killed. I forget the giant's name though. In Scandinavian mythology this could be the giant named Ymir.

"Early man seems to have held the idea that the creative act could only follow the killing or suicidal self sacrifice of the progenitive god. In the myths of Purusha, Viraj, TIamat, Ymir, P'an Ku, and Izana-gi, we have the prototype of the death and mutilation of the fertility god who is later to take a new form and name as the Divine Scapegoat: Tammuz, Osiris, Dionysius, and finally the Christian Saviour, as Frazer suggests."
Myths of Creation by Philip Freund

In the Old Testament we also hear the story of Elohim dividing the waters, dividing the heavens from the earth, and we hear the story come up about God's battle with Leviathan or with an ancient serpeant or dragon. This has a reflection in the story of Marduk dividing Tiamat in Babylonian mythology.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: dying and rising gods

Post by Joseph D. L. »

^ A similar concept existed in Egypt. The dismembered parts of Osiris were scattered across the region, with Isis erecting a memorial mound where she found them. These mounds were later cultivated into cities.

This may have some significance to the Pauline notion that the church represented the body of Christ, or how Jesus likened the Temple and its destruction to his death.
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