May as well bring Alan Garrow in: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3074. He argues that Didache 9 and 10 are two separate but parallel rituals.John2 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:50 pm Just to take another look at it, here is Did. 9 regarding the eucharist.
Now concerning the Thanksgiving (Eucharist), thus give thanks. First, concerning the cup: We thank you, our Father, for the holy vine of David Your servant, which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory forever. And concerning the broken bread: We thank You, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory forever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Your Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Your kingdom; for Yours is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ forever. But let no one eat or drink of your Thanksgiving (Eucharist), but they who have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, Give not that which is holy to the dogs.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm
Achilles Tatius and the Christian eucharist.
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Re: Achilles Tatius and the Christian eucharist.
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Re: Achilles Tatius and the Christian eucharist.
What if we could have our cake and eat it too by supposing that Mark was drawn to verses in the LXX that reminded him (consciously or unconsciously) of Homer? Then that would explain why MacDonald sees his parallels and you see yours. Both parallels would be "right," but the LXX parallels would be "more right" since presumably in Mark's view the OT was superior to or superseded Homer.As for finding Homeric influence on Mark, it is not that I am rootedly opposed to the idea in general; I think that all the gospels probably drew from diverse sources, so why can Homer not be one of them? It is just that, whenever something specific gets proposed in that direction, the proposed parallel seems either weak on its own merits or weak compared to other parallels, such as those from the LXX. I have yet to find a case that makes me say, "Ah! There it is. Direct, mimetic influence on Mark."
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Re: Achilles Tatius and the Christian eucharist.
Anything wrong with this basic sequence?
- Bread and wine were elements of Mediterranean culture and cuisine from time immemorial.
- Especially in the context of a formal family meal, these elements took on a symbolic function, often representing the unity of the family unit as demonstrated, for example, in the sharing of a single loaf or the drinking from a single cup.
- In the context of a national religious ritual, members of the nation formed an extended family for one another, and their formal meals distilled this meal symbolism into a strong sociopolitical unity. Likewise, in the context of a cultic ritual, members of the cult formed a surrogate family for one another, and their formal meals distilled this meal symbolism into a strong fraternal or sororal unity.
- Certain Jewish messianic/Christian cult groups employed this symbolism in a manner now preserved (twice?) for us in Didache 9-10. Their unity included an eschatological element: the regathering of all of Israel.
- Certain Jewish-Christian cult groups partook of this symbolic meal in the context of a liturgical celebration of the passion of Christ. The bread and wine took on an extra layer of symbolism as the body and blood of Christ (a maneuver which soon left Christians open to charges of cannibalism).
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Re: Achilles Tatius and the Christian eucharist.
How secure are we on the dating?Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:09 pmI am not sure why Tatius' treatment of the eucharist would imply that (I am hoping you will explain the connection), but I have elsewhere made an argument for 1 Corinthians 11.23-28 being an interpolation into Paul on other grounds: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2650. It is hardly an open-and-shut case, but it is something.
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Re: Achilles Tatius and the Christian eucharist.
Not sure. I have scarcely begun to look into it.Jax wrote: ↑Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:43 pmHow secure are we on the dating?Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:09 pmI am not sure why Tatius' treatment of the eucharist would imply that (I am hoping you will explain the connection), but I have elsewhere made an argument for 1 Corinthians 11.23-28 being an interpolation into Paul on other grounds: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2650. It is hardly an open-and-shut case, but it is something.
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Re: Achilles Tatius and the Christian eucharist.
The Loeb edition is here: https://ryanfb.github.io/loebolus-data/L045.pdf. The introduction dates the novel to the end of century III. However, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 3836 had not yet been published. Perhaps the date was pushed back to century II solely to accommodate that papyrus. I do not know for certain what would prevent an earlier date, as I am not very familiar with this Greek novel.
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Re: Achilles Tatius and the Christian eucharist.
John J. Winkler has this to say in the introduction to his translation:Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:13 pm The Loeb edition is here: https://ryanfb.github.io/loebolus-data/L045.pdf. The introduction dates the novel to the end of century III. However, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 3836 had not yet been published. Perhaps the date was pushed back to century II solely to accommodate that papyrus. I do not know for certain what would prevent an earlier date, as I am not very familiar with this Greek novel.
Evidence of papyri on the one side and of Hellenic hairstyles and Alexandrian topography on the other suggests that The Adventures of Leukippe and Kleitophon (Leukippe, for short) was written in the third quarter of the second century C.E.
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Re: Achilles Tatius and the Christian eucharist.
Good to know. Thanks.Nathan wrote: ↑Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:14 pmJohn J. Winkler has this to say in the introduction to his translation:Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:13 pm The Loeb edition is here: https://ryanfb.github.io/loebolus-data/L045.pdf. The introduction dates the novel to the end of century III. However, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 3836 had not yet been published. Perhaps the date was pushed back to century II solely to accommodate that papyrus. I do not know for certain what would prevent an earlier date, as I am not very familiar with this Greek novel.
Evidence of papyri on the one side and of Hellenic hairstyles and Alexandrian topography on the other suggests that The Adventures of Leukippe and Kleitophon (Leukippe, for short) was written in the third quarter of the second century C.E.
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Re: Achilles Tatius and the Christian eucharist.
See Novel in the Ancient WorldNathan wrote: ↑Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:14 pmJohn J. Winkler has this to say in the introduction to his translation:Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:13 pm The Loeb edition is here: https://ryanfb.github.io/loebolus-data/L045.pdf. The introduction dates the novel to the end of century III. However, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 3836 had not yet been published. Perhaps the date was pushed back to century II solely to accommodate that papyrus. I do not know for certain what would prevent an earlier date, as I am not very familiar with this Greek novel.
Evidence of papyri on the one side and of Hellenic hairstyles and Alexandrian topography on the other suggests that The Adventures of Leukippe and Kleitophon (Leukippe, for short) was written in the third quarter of the second century C.E.
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Re: Achilles Tatius and the Christian eucharist.
Excellent. Thanks.andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:40 amSee Novel in the Ancient WorldNathan wrote: ↑Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:14 pmJohn J. Winkler has this to say in the introduction to his translation:Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:13 pm The Loeb edition is here: https://ryanfb.github.io/loebolus-data/L045.pdf. The introduction dates the novel to the end of century III. However, papyrus Oxyrhynchus 3836 had not yet been published. Perhaps the date was pushed back to century II solely to accommodate that papyrus. I do not know for certain what would prevent an earlier date, as I am not very familiar with this Greek novel.
Evidence of papyri on the one side and of Hellenic hairstyles and Alexandrian topography on the other suggests that The Adventures of Leukippe and Kleitophon (Leukippe, for short) was written in the third quarter of the second century C.E.
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