I Don't Get the Ordinal Grouping of Powers in Clement of Alexandria's Statement

[Secret Alias]

" In the Christian gospel of John, an heir to Ionian thought, logos is equated with God [Morris The Greeks p. 294] https://books.google.com/books?id=a9UrA ... EQ6AEIKTAA

[Charles Wilson]

Valentinus keeps coming up as if there were Organizations that were "tried out", rejected and then grouped and marginalized as "Old Heretics".

Luke would be last since it tells of collating all of the (Known. True.) material. The Anti-Marcionite positioning is very interesting.
John would be first since Jesus' existence is proclaimed from the Dawn of Creation and Jesus is thus Creator of All, Transvaluing the "Jewish Understanding".

Matthew has a Genealogy but it is suspect and at odds with Luke's. Not enough to displace Luke/Marcionite Gospel as last.

There are problems with all of these at their beginnings. Why would John and his declaration of the Beginning of Time get displaced? Methinks your examinations of Alexandria point to something of value here.

Thx again.

[Secret Alias]

Ding, ding, ding Jackpot! I hear another paper

https://books.google.com/books?id=GXZ3C ... el&f=false

[Secret Alias]

Even if Lightfoot and others waver and pin "the Ionian" as a living member of the Johannine tradition - viz Melito - the logic is still the same. https://books.google.com/books?id=GmFJA ... an&f=false

[Secret Alias]

Ben you might be interested in this other translation of the original passage. It reads more like yours

https://books.google.com/books?id=XWpL1 ... ta&f=false

[Ben C. Smith]

Ben you might be interested in this other translation of the original passage. It reads more like yours

https://books.google.com/books?id=XWpL1 ... ta&f=false

It is definitely similar in some ways, yes, but it treats Magna Graecia as "the Greek Dispersion." The results are no longer triangular there, in consequence.

It does separate "the last one" from the rest, not equating him to the Hebrew from Palestine, which of course I think is a good move.

[Secret Alias]

The consensus of scholars (those who have written on the subject) that 'the Ionian' is a Johannine figure. Clement's reference to John and Ephesus in particular in QDS is particularly influential:

And that you may be still more confident, that repenting thus truly there remains for you a sure hope of salvation, listen to a tale? which is not a tale but a narrative, handed down and committed to the custody of memory, about the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant's death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole Churches, there to ordain such as were marked out by the Spirit.

Having come to one of the cities not far off (the name of which some give), and having put the brethren to rest in other matters, at last, looking to the bishop appointed, and seeing a youth, powerful in body, comely in appearance, and ardent, said, "This (youth) I commit to you in all earnestness, in the presence of the Church, and with Christ as witness." And on his accepting and promising all, he gave the same injunction and testimony. And he set out for Ephesus. And the presbyter taking home the youth committed to him, reared, kept, cherished, and finally baptized him.

Lightfoot's argument that Melito is the Ionian is unconvincing IMHO as Melito derives from honey μελι (genitive μελιτος) and the last figure is compared with a bee that gathers pollen. The reference to 'honey' and 'bee' is too similar. But clearly the underlying idea is that the Ionian is related to John.

[Secret Alias]

another translation https://books.google.com/books?id=QVUXA ... GHoECAMQAQ

[Secret Alias]

John has been called "the Ephesians gospel"

On one point only a few words are needed. I have called the Gospel the Ephesian Gospel, and I certainly lay a certain amount of stress on its relation to the religion and thought of the most important of the Greek cities of Asia Minor. On this point the evidence of tradition is very strong, since the Ephesian source of the Gospel was accepted by Christian writers from the second century onwards

So too Watson recently https://books.google.com/books?id=23NyC ... l"&f=false

[Secret Alias]

On John being an Ionian (Ephesian):

This long residence of the Apostle in Ephesus is asserted or implied by a number of early Christian writers, including Justin Martyr and Polycrates (who had both lived in Ephesus)https://books.google.com/books?id=f6xfp ... AHoECAQQAQ