I Don't Get the Ordinal Grouping of Powers in Clement of Alexandria's Statement

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: I Don't Get the Ordinal Grouping of Powers in Clement of Alexandria's Statement

Post by Secret Alias »

And going back to the source material
One in Greece an Ionic person.
Others in Magna Graecia, among whom one was originally from Coele-Syria, another from Egypt.
Still others in the East among whom one was from Assyria, another (a Hebrew) from Palestine. "The last" (and most powerful, according to Clement) also came from the East, hidden in Egypt
Curious that all of these places are associated with gospels
One in Greece an Ionic person.(= gospel of John)
Others in Magna Graecia, among whom one was originally from Coele-Syria (= gospel of the Nazarenes) another from Egypt (= gospel of Mark)
Still others in the East among whom one was from Assyria (= gospel of Tatian), another (= gospel of the Hebrews) from Palestine. "The last" (and most powerful, according to Clement) also came from the East, hidden in Egypt (= secret Mark)
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: I Don't Get the Ordinal Grouping of Powers in Clement of Alexandria's Statement

Post by Secret Alias »

Let's follow the logic of Clement to help identify the context of Clement' being "judged worthy for the hearing of the words of blessed and worthy men" (ὧν κατηξιώθην ἐπακοῦσαι, λόγων τε καὶ ἀνδρῶν μακαρίων καὶ τῷ ὄντι ἀξιολόγων" (1.1.11.2). The list that follows then does not suppose a face to face encounter with the men. There is no reference as far as I can determine of him actually 'seeing' the Ionian, the one from Coele-Syria etc. The determining experience is coming into acquaintance with hearing them. Notice also that Clement himself is 'judged worthy' κατηξιώθην of hearing the "worthy" (ἀξιολόγων) men to the extent that he becomes like them. This is the key to making sense of the passage. Clement hears the Ionian, then the Coele Syrian, then the Egyptian (both in Magna Graecia), and then he hears three more in the East - the Assyrian, the Palestinian and finally the hidden Egyptian. But the underlying experience is always the same - he has been judged worthy in each case to be brought into acquaintance with their hearing. No mention whatsoever of 'seeing' anyone.

I think that Clement is hinting in a way that he wrote a gospel. Of course he is doesn't say that nor does he give the name of any of his sources - let alone his final 'hidden' Egyptian source. But the context here at the beginning of the Stromata is a context for the work that will follow. The work is aimed to prevent 'forgetfulness.' What sort of 'forgetting' is he talking about? It would seem that each gospel he has come into acquaintance with has only been read to him. You don't walk away with a copy of the gospel. To this end this is exactly the scenario described in his Letter to Theodore regarding the 'secret' text guarded by the Church in Alexandria:
Thus, in sum, he (Mark) prepared matters, neither grudgingly nor incautiously, in my opinion, and, dying, he left his composition to the church in Alexandria, where it even yet is most carefully guarded, being read only to those who are being initiated into the great mysteries.
In other words, if you happen to be in Alexandria and are accounted worthy of being brought into acquaintance with the text the hidden Egyptian gospel will be read to you. But after you leave you have nothing to take with you.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: I Don't Get the Ordinal Grouping of Powers in Clement of Alexandria's Statement

Post by Secret Alias »

Cosaert

If the words (of scripture) mattered that much to Clement why does he show so little concern at times for citing them exactly? The answer appears to rely again on Clement's overall hermeneutic: it is not so much the words themselves that matter to Clement, but the voice that speaks through the word. That voice, for Clement, is a living voice, and it continues to speak catechetically to all those who are willing to hear. Thus Clement feels he has the freedom to allow that voice to address people living in his own day: at times that means allowing the sense/meaning of that voice not to be fettered to the actual “words” of the text, while at other times he conveys that voice through the actual words of the text itself!
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: I Don't Get the Ordinal Grouping of Powers in Clement of Alexandria's Statement

Post by Secret Alias »

The Muratorian canon seems to argue that John was written 50 CE (is the scene from the Acts of John):
The fourth of the Gospels is that of John, [one] of the disciples. (10) To his fellow disciples and bishops, who had been urging him [to write], (11) he said, 'Fast with me from today to three days, and what (12) will be revealed to each one (13) let us tell it to one another.' In the same night it was revealed (14) to Andrew, [one] of the apostles, (15-16) that John should write down all things in his own name while all of them should review it. And so, though various (17) elements [3a] may be taught in the individual books of the Gospels, (18) nevertheless this makes no difference to the faith (19) of believers, since by the one sovereign [3b] Spirit all things (20) have been declared in all [the Gospels]: concerning the (21) nativity, concerning the passion, concerning the resurrection, (22) concerning life with his disciples, (23) and concerning his twofold coming; (24) the first in lowliness when he was despised, which has taken place, (25) the second glorious in royal power, (26) which is still in the future. What (27) marvel is it then, if John so consistently (28) mentions these particular points also in his Epistles, (29) saying about himself, 'What we have seen with our eyes (30) and heard with our ears and our hands (31) have handled, these things we have written to you? [4] (32) For in this way he professes [himself] to be not only an eye-witness and hearer, (33) but also a writer of all the marvelous deeds of the Lord, in their order.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Charles Wilson
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Re: I Don't Get the Ordinal Grouping of Powers in Clement of Alexandria's Statement

Post by Charles Wilson »

but also a writer of all the marvelous deeds of the Lord, in their order.
"...ALL the marvelous deeds..."
"...in their ORDER..."

Interesting claims.

Edit Note: First up for me would be the placement of the "Cleansing of the Temple", at the beginning of John and at the end of the Synoptics. Then, onto the Last Supper - or John 7, if you wish.

On the view that John corrects Mark (and therefore the Synoptics) this makes sense. It would imply that in the early years the church hierarchy people were well aware of the internal problems of the texts. Again, John provides the Reason for Primacy: Jesus was the Creator of all things. This has to be repeated later in a subtle manner by the Minority Reporters, as above.
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