Joshua 5:13-15 and Mark 16:8: midrash?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Joshua 5:13-15 and Mark 16:8: midrash?

Post by Giuseppe »

The central mystery of the Therapeutae was held at night and celebrated the Exodus event, as a transformation of transcendence to “the other shore”
5. The great figures who led Israel to the other shore were Moses (among the Therapeutae) and Joshua/Jesus (among Christian gnostics)
http://www.mythicistpapers.com/2018/04/ ... tary-pt-1/

After the crossing by the "Israelites" of the Jordan direct theophany of God seems to have receded and instead it was written of the anointed Joshua that,
«he raised his eyes and saw a man standing there before him, grasping a naked sword. Joshua walked towards him and said to him, "Are you with us or with our enemies?" He answered, "No, I am captain of the army of Yahweh, and now I come". Joshua fell on his face to the ground and worshipped him and ... the captain of the army ... answered ... "Take your sandals of your feet, for the place you are standing on is holy". And Joshua obeyed»

(Joshua 5:13-15)

This episode seems very similar to the episode of the young angel at the Empty Tomb in Mark.

But note the difference: the biblical Joshua obeyed to the Angel of YHWH (he removed his sandals of his feet) while the women didn't obey to the Young Man.

Moreover, another difference: the place that is holy is where the biblical Joshua is already (before the Angel of YHWH), while in Mark the place that is holy (in virtue of the presence of Jesus Nazarene) is the far Galilee, not the Empty Tomb.

Note the third difference: the biblical Joshua is before the Angel of Lord (himself?) while the women are before not Jesus, but the Young Man.

So my theory is that by this midrash from Joshua 5:13-15, what ''Mark'' (author) wants to say is that the real disciple is already before the true Risen Christ (in the Galilea of the Gentiles), just as the biblical Joshua was before the his Celestial Image (the same Angel of the Lord!) just after the passing of the Jordan...

...while the false disciples (the women, and so Peter and the 12 idiots) are before a mere representative of the true Jesus, i.e. the Young Man, in the mere Empty Tomb (allegory of the destroyed Temple and of the ''empty'' Peter/Rock).

(P.S. I hope that Peter (not Cephas) is more satisfied by this my post :popcorn: )
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Joshua 5:13-15 and Mark 16:8: midrash?

Post by Giuseppe »

Note also a (relatively surprising) similarity between Joshua 5:13-15 and Mark 16:8.

The ''sword'' of the Angel of Lord (a representative of the his Power) is ''naked''.

The Young Man may be the same Young Naked (from the arrest episode).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Joshua 5:13-15 and Mark 16:8: midrash?

Post by Secret Alias »

The central mystery of the Therapeutae was held at night and celebrated the Exodus event, as a transformation of transcendence to “the other shore”
5. The great figures who led Israel to the other shore were Moses (among the Therapeutae) and Joshua/Jesus (among Christian gnostics)
Wow! I've read the report in Philo and this is quite a ridiculous claim. Is the word 'shore' ever used in Exodus? I don't think Joshua has a role in the crossing of the sea. He only comes into the fore at Sinai. Sounds like a lot of dubious, self-serving claims. I don't see how you get a Joshua cult from Exodus.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Joshua 5:13-15 and Mark 16:8: midrash?

Post by Secret Alias »

Here are all the references to Joshua in Exodus:
Exodus 17:9 Moses said to Joshua, “Choose some of our men and go out to fight the Amalekites. Tomorrow I will stand on top of the hill with the staff of God in my hands.”

Exodus 17:10 So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill.

Exodus 17:13 So Joshua overcame the Amalekite army with the sword.

Exodus 17:14 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven.”

Exodus 24:13 Then Moses set out with Joshua his aide, and Moses went up on the mountain of God.

Exodus 32:17 When Joshua heard the noise of the people shouting, he said to Moses, “There is the sound of war in the camp.”

Exodus 33:11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
None of this seems to have any relation to Jesus Christ let alone the crossing of the Sea. Sorry this sounded like bullshit. Probably is.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: Joshua 5:13-15 and Mark 16:8: midrash?

Post by Giuseppe »

But I think that the reference (by Detering) is to Joshua passing the Jordan, a kind of Exosus 2.0.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Joshua 5:13-15 and Mark 16:8: midrash?

Post by Giuseppe »

Joshua 5:1:

Now when all the Amorite kings west of the Jordan and all the Canaanite kings along the coast heard how the Lord had dried up the Jordan before the Israelites until they had crossed over, their hearts melted in fear and they no longer had the courage to face the Israelites.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Joshua 5:13-15 and Mark 16:8: midrash?

Post by Secret Alias »

But the crossing of the Jordan isn't in the Pentateuch. Hard to make a Joshua cult from Exodus which is his thesis right? And where do we get the Therapeutae were using the Book of Joshua. Kind of sounds like bullshit, if you asked me. Self-serving mythicist mumbo jumbo. A little of this, a little of that with no real reality. He has no evidence at all that the Therapeutae did any of this. Why have Miriam and Moses lead the antiphonal choir when you are really using the Book of Joshua? Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit which you buy because you want to believe this. If Moses and Miriam are leading the choir, the song is Exodus 15 and only Exodus 15. No Jesus there so no thesis. 888 is there in Exodus 15.1 mind you ...
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: Joshua 5:13-15 and Mark 16:8: midrash?

Post by Giuseppe »

But what is not a coincidence is the fact that the Terapeutae were adoring Moses (FACT, not interpretation), while the Perati (and other Gnostics) were adoring Joshua/Jesus (FACT, not interpretation) and the fact that both Moses and Joshua crossed a sea.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Joshua 5:13-15 and Mark 16:8: midrash?

Post by Secret Alias »

No Joshua crossed a river not a sea.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Joshua 5:13-15 and Mark 16:8: midrash?

Post by Secret Alias »

I mean of course there is a parallel. But Moses is the archetype not Joshua.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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