The Space-Time Traveler Joshua as the more expected Gnostic reflection of the new Moses

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
Giuseppe
Posts: 4636
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Vicenza (Italy)

The Space-Time Traveler Joshua as the more expected Gnostic reflection of the new Moses

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:14 am

According to dr. Detering, as I read from Neil's article,


the following stages:
1) Moses saves the people of Egypt, holding back the waters of the Red Sea (Therapeutae, possibly Peratae).
2) Joshua / Jesus saves the people from Egypt and make the Jordan flow back up (Naassene).
3) Jesus comes over the Jordan into the world, the waters fall back. (Testimonium Veritatis).

https://vridar.org/2018/04/22/gnostic-i ... esus-cult/


Now, also Christ was said to be appeared more times in different ages.

I wonder: was this passage ''Beyond the Jordan'' really an allegory of a cosmic event?
Apparently it seems so for the heretical sects mentioned by the dr. Detering (the Peratai, the Naassene, etc).

But since the Jordan here is allegory of the corruption intrinsic in the space and in the time (think about the Heraclitus's motto 'panta rei''), then the more expected action by a cosmic Joshua who has to go through the space and the time is the same Jesus who ''was continually being transfused into bodies, and was manifested in many (different bodies) at different times''.

So I repeat here the evidence of this ''space-time traveler'' Jesus :

But certain others, introducing as it were some novel tenet, appropriated parts of their system from all heresies, and procured a strange volume, which bore on the title page the name of one Elchasai. These, in like manner, acknowledge that the principles of the universe were originated by the Deity. They do not, however, confess that there is but one Christ, but that there is one that is superior to the rest, and that He is transfused into many bodies frequently, and was now in Jesus. And, in like manner, these heretics maintain that at one time Christ was begotten of God, and at another time became the Spirit, and at another time was born of a virgin, and at another time not so. And they affirm that likewise this Jesus afterwards was continually being transfused into bodies, and was manifested in many (different bodies) at different times. And they resort to incantations and baptisms in their confession of elements. And they occupy themselves with bustling activity in regard of astrological and mathematical science, and of the arts of sorcery. But also they allege themselves to have powers of prescience.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050110.htm

For the true Prophet Himself also from the beginning of the world, through the course of time, hastens to rest. For He is present with us at all times; and if at any time it is necessary, He appears and corrects us, that He may bring to eternal life those who obey Him.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/080402.htm

Know then that Christ, who was from the beginning, and always, was ever present with the pious, though secretly, through all their generations: especially with those who waited for Him, to whom He frequently appeared.


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/080401.htm

Therefore Abraham, when he was desirous to learn the causes of things, and was intently pondering upon what had been told him, the true Prophet appeared to him, who alone knows the hearts and purpose of men, and disclosed to him all things which he desired. He taught him the knowledge of the Divinity; intimated the origin of the world, and likewise its end; showed him the immortality of the soul, and the manner of life which was pleasing to God; declared also the resurrection of the dead, the future judgment, the reward of the good, the punishment of the evil — all to be regulated by righteous judgment: and having given him all this information plainly and sufficiently, He departed again to the invisible abodes.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/080401.htm

To this, I replied: I remember, Peter, that you told me of the first man that he was a prophet; but you did not say that he was anointed. If then there be no prophet without anointing, how could the first man be a prophet, since he was not anointed? Then Peter, smiling, said: If the first man prophesied, it is certain that he was also anointed. For although he who has recorded the law in his pages is silent as to his anointing, yet he has evidently left us to understand these things. For as, if he had said that he was anointed, it would not be doubted that he was also a prophet, although it were not written in the law; so, since it is certain that he was a prophet, it is in like manner certain that he was also anointed, because without anointing he could not be a prophet.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/080401.htm

Now the Prophet of the truth is He who always knows all things—things past as they were, things present as they are, things future as they shall be; sinless, merciful, alone entrusted with the declaration of the truth. Read, and you shall find that those were deceived who thought that they had found the truth of themselves. For this is peculiar to the Prophet, to declare the truth, even as it is peculiar to the sun to bring the day. Wherefore, as many as have even desired to know the truth, but have not had the good fortune to learn it from Him, have not found it, but have died seeking it.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/080802.htm

Louis Gordon Rylands:

The implication is that in all ages the Prophet could have been consulted.


The statement also, 'to whomsoever the Son may wish to reveal Him,' is also correct; for He being the Son from the beginning, was alone appointed to give the revelation to those to whom He wishes to give it. And thus the first man (protoplast) Adam must have heard of Him; and Enoch, who pleased God, must have known Him; and Noah, the righteous one, must have become acquainted with Him; and Abraam His friend must have understood Him; and Isaac must have perceived Him; and Jacob, who wrestled with Him, must have believed in Him; and the revelation must have been given to all among the people who were worthy.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/080818.htm

When God had made man after His own image and likeness, He grafted into His work a certain breathing and odour of His divinity, that so men, being made partakers of His Only-begotten, might through Him be also friends of God and sons of adoption. Whence also He Himself, as the true Prophet, knowing with what actions the Father is pleased, instructed them in what way they might obtain that privilege.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/080818.htm

But he would act most piously, if he should not allow to another to have it, but should say that he alone has it, who has changed his forms and his names from the beginning of the world, and so reappeared again and again in the world, until coming upon his own times, and being anointed with mercy for the works of God, he shall enjoy rest forever.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/080803.htm
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
Posts: 4636
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Vicenza (Italy)

Re: The Space-Time Traveler Joshua as the more expected Gnostic reflection of the new Moses

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:28 am

But note that Paul says that Jesus was crucified only one time in only one space: by the archons of THIS age. Not of ANY age.

Note also that Paul says - or better, he insists - that the his Revelation/Illumination is the last and definitive and the more perfect one. Just as Muhammad.

And since I doubt about Muhammad being the Last Prophet (even if he - a historical Muahmmad - existed), I should doubt also about the historicity of a Paul claiming really the possession of the last, definitive and more perfect Revelation/Illumination (even if he - a historical Paul - existed).

And so I realize another stage in the evolution of the myth, in addition to the three stages found by the dr. Detering:
the following stages:
1) Moses saves the people of Egypt, holding back the waters of the Red Sea (Therapeutae, possibly Peratae).
2) Joshua / Jesus saves the people from Egypt and make the Jordan flow back up (Naassene).
3) Jesus comes over the Jordan into the world, the waters fall back. (Testimonium Veritatis).


4) the Space-Time Traveler Joshua reveals himself many times in different places and in different ages.

5) someone (Marcion?) fixed only one space and only one time for the revelation of Jesus, by inventing or fabricating the epistles of ''Paul''.

This scenario may explain why in the epistles of Paul there is no reference at all to the place and the time of the Crucifixion. It was only THIS place and THIS time, but other information is not given.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 10066
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Space-Time Traveler Joshua as the more expected Gnostic reflection of the new Moses

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:39 am

Detering obviously gets his idea from statements in the early Church Fathers (mostly against Marcion) to the effect that Jesus(2) is Jesus(1) or perhaps more correctly that Jesus was the name of the awaited messiah from the Holy Scriptures mostly notably because (but not exclusively owing to) the relationship between Moses and Joshua. Joshua takes over the role from Jesus. Since the messiah is 'one like Moses' and Joshua is described in like terminology and authority with respect to Moses THEREFORE it is evidence (to the Church Fathers) that the one who will come would be named Joshua (in part because Jewish people thought names weren't arbitrary 'descriptive' attributes of objects but in some sense embodied the essential essence of things (see the discussion of Origen Against Celsus to see a third century recognition of this phenomenon).

THIS is the germ of where Detering gets his idea. We can be sure of that. I don't even need to read his footnotes. The other element is clearly that the Samaritans (normative Samaritans) identify Joshua son of Nun as the one who fulfilled the 'one like me' (Deut 18:15) expectation. In this respect the Samaritan position is much like the one described in Dialogue of Justin with respect to various dead OT figures. In other words, both normative Jews and normative Samaritans were essentially saying that various 'predictions' associated with scripture had already been filled so the same 'prophesies' cannot apply to Jesus. This line of reason is still used by Jews and Samaritans to this day.

Given that this is the context from which Detering builds and you in turn build we have to use the source material to question any association with Marcionism in particular. Why? Because of two bits of evidence. The first is obviously that the Church Fathers were saying Jesus = Joshua against the Marcionites. As such the Marcionites did not hold to this position. If anything the Marcionites shared the Jewish position that the OT expectations were already fulfilled or would be fulfilled by people other than Jesus. Moreover Ephrem tells us that the Marcionites distinguished the Syriac name for Jesus (Isu) from that of Joshua (Ishu). Thirdly the Marcionites called Jesus Chrestos rather than Christos meaning that whatever Jesus was he wasn't the anointed one.

The point of course is that we can assume from this table of data that whatever Jesus was for the Marcionites he wasn't Joshua or a second Joshua. End of story.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 2549
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: The Space-Time Traveler Joshua as the more expected Gnostic reflection of the new Moses

Post by DCHindley » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:20 pm

Whaaa?

Giuseppe, there is much in Christian fathers that comes from the Platonism of those times (.e., Middle Platonism). Plato had his own ideas about space & time.

You might find something useful by investigating the matter. I recommend John Dillon's book, The Middle Platonists (1977). Sorry, no authorized e-book.

DCH

Post Reply