A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

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Subject: Galileans, ambiguous oracles, Christians, and the generational prophecy.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:27 pmAs for 1 Thessalonians 5.1-2, I do think that 1 Thessalonians is a genuinely Pauline letter, but I also think that it bears interpolations from a later perspective, and that 5.1-11 is one of those interpolations. This current survey is part of my reason for suspecting this: while 4.13-18 belongs firmly to the viewpoint that the resurrection is near, 5.1-11 asserts that nobody can know the times or seasons, comparing the coming to a thief in the night.

That image of the thief finds expression in another epistle written from a late perspective:

2 Peter 3.3-16: 3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation, just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things difficult to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the scriptures, to their own destruction.

In a context all about the seeming delay of the coming, this author points to Paul's epistles as both (A) speaking to this very topic, "the patience of the Lord," and (B) containing things which are "difficult to understand." Well, quite! Paul wrote in expectation of the end of all things either within his own lifetime (1 Thessalonians 4.15; 1 Corinthians 15.51) or within the lifetimes of the recipients of his epistles (1 Thessalonians 5.23; 2 Corinthians 4.14); Paul wrote that "the season has been shortened" (1 Corinthians 7.29), and that "the ends of the ages" have come (1 Corinthians 10.11). It is easy to see how, the further in the past the death of Paul and all his converts became, the more "difficult" his words would become, as well. So pseudo-Peter here reassures us that we are simply misreading the good apostle when we come across such passages and wonder why the Lord has still not come. In truth, the day will come like a thief, which is exactly what 1 Thessalonians 5.2-4 says; in other words, the above passage from 2 Peter gives us the exact motive for somebody to have interpolated 1 Thessalonians 5.1-11 right after the earnest expectations of 1 Thessalonians 4.13-18, not to mention some of the very same words, as well.

Another consideration, which I will touch upon just briefly here, is that I also tend to think that 1 Thessalonians 2.14-16 is probably an interpolation, a position which I know is quite popular on this forum. But 1 Thessalonians 2.14-16 has more in common with the gospel of Matthew than with any other text of which I am aware, and so does 1 Thessalonians 5.1-11. I believe that somebody dredged the first Thessalonian epistle through some Matthean material before it reached us in its current form.

My point in all of this is that our Christian sources bear two very distinct kinds of eschatological material, some of it side by side in some texts. The first type of material asserts that the end of the ages, the last generation, is at hand; this type may also give a list of signs of increasing force leading up to the final consummation; this type is also of a piece with the "ambiguous oracle" discussed by Josephus, Tacitus, and Suetonius. The second type of material modifies that assertion in some way. It may assert instead that nobody can know the time, or it may look forward to the "last days" instead of admitting their present currency, or it may employ other strategies: anything to avoid the obvious conclusion that Jesus and the apostles falsely assumed and predicted the end of all things within their lifetimes. I have traced some of these strategies through the church fathers elsewhere.

My ongoing suggestion is that somebody or some group of people calculated, from Daniel, that the predicted end was at hand during century I. This calculation led to intense expectations, written all over our early Christian literature and in the comments by Josephus concerning the rebels defending Jerusalem, that the consummation was right around the corner. Those expectations were partially realized (in the fall of Jerusalem; in fact, however that war came out, it would have played into certain predictions), but not fully (no resurrection, no gathering of the elect, no judgment of the wicked). So modifications were made, expectations managed, and it was this diverse effort to mute the generational prophecy that led to the two very different kinds of eschatological material present in our extant texts.
The pattern laid out above (one type of material asserting that the last generation is at hand, another type insisting that the timing is unknown) can be found in various places in the extant Christian literature.

In my first example, the first type of material (in boldfaced green) is put on the lips of the clueless disciples just so that Jesus can set them straight by the judicious use of the second type of material (in boldfaced red):

Acts 1.6-8:

6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time that You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"

7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

There is no issue of sources being modified here, at least not on this score. The disciples' sincere question is deliberately framed so as to lead to Jesus' answer. But the pattern is clear: any expectation of an imminent eschaton is immediately quashed by the assertion that nobody knows the timing (except God).

In my second example, the first type of material is put on the lips of skeptics just so that the epistolary author, pseudo-Peter, can set them straight, you guessed it, by the judicious use of the second type of material:

2 Peter 3.3-16:

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation, just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things difficult to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the scriptures, to their own destruction.

Again, there is no issue of sources being modified here. The skeptics' rhetorical question is deliberately framed so as to lead to pseudo-Peter's answer. But the pattern is once again quite clear. In this case, the image of the thief, which we will meet again, serves as a metaphor for the unknown timing.

In my third example, both the first type of material and the second type of material are attributed to Paul himself:

1 Thessalonians 4.13-5.11:

4.13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

5.1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety," then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

In this case we do have what I believe to be an issue of sources being modified. Paul is supposedly implying in the first half, from his own free volition, that he himself will witness the advent of the Lord, while simultaneously stating in the second half that the day will come like a thief, which is exactly the metaphor that pseudo-Peter used in order to blunt the force of the imminence of the eschaton, right before he admits that the epistles of Paul can be misunderstood (!). On their own, the two halves of this passage can be harmonized with each other; in the context of early Christian preaching, however, I think we can recognize that the two halves follow the familiar pattern. Because (unlike in my first two examples) both halves supposedly derive from the same person, Paul, I think that somebody has added the second half to the first.

In my fourth and fifth examples, both the first type of material and the second type of material are attributed to Jesus himself:

Mark 13.24-37:

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth, to the farthest end of heaven. 28 Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

32 But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 33 Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time is. 34 It is like a man, away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert. 35 Therefore, be on the alert — for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, at cockcrowing, or in the morning — 36 lest he come suddenly and find you asleep. 37 And what I say to you I say to all: 'Be on the alert!'"

Matthew 24.29-51:

29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. 32 Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the advent of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the advent of the Son of Man be. 40 Then there shall be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left. 42 Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you be ready too; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will. 45 Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 Truly I say to you, that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and shall begin to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and shall cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; weeping shall be there and the gnashing of teeth.

Again the issue of sources arises. Jesus is both claiming that this is the last generation and then also resorting to the exact strategy employed by Luke (in Acts) and pseudo-Peter in order to mitigate that claim. The church fathers knew this maneuver. Notice the image of the thief again in Matthew, as well as the motif of drunkenness in the same, just as we find in the second half of the Thessalonian passage. Notice also that Matthew, on the supposition of Marcan priority, has added very little to the prediction of the eschaton, along with the generational prediction itself, but has been considerably more generous with the motif of the unknown day and hour, adding several different lines reinforcing the same notion. I think, therefore, that somebody has added the second half to the first precisely in order to blunt the force of the generational prophecy. This addition may have happened when Mark was composed, or it may have happened earlier, but it was passed on both by Mark and by Matthew, since the need for the mitigating motif would have only increased, never decreased, as time stretched on.

Ben.

ETA: This pattern of claiming to know the date or range of dates and then having to change the claim to not knowing the date may find something of an analogy among the Millerites. Mark 13.30 (the generational prophecy) strikes me as similar to William Miller claiming that the consummation was coming between March 21, 1843, and March 21, 1844 (a range of dates). Mark 13.32-37 (the unknown hour), on the other hand, strikes me as similar to some former Millerites claiming that no one can know the exact time:

God does have a day and hour. Ellen White heard it in her first vision, although the Lord did not allow her to reveal it. The same letter quoted above explains, "I have not the slightest knowledge as to the time spoken by the voice of God. I heard the hour proclaimed, but had no remembrance of that hour after I came out of vision."

Failed predictions of timed events can get reinterpreted like this, and I believe that this may be what we are seeing in Mark 13. Miller himself, once his prediction had been falsified by time itself, admitted his mistake, but did not let go of the overall message of imminence:

I confess my error, and acknowledge my disappointment; yet I still believe that the day of the Lord is near, even at the door.

When his proposed range of dates failed him, he fell back on the motif of imminence and of the unknown hour.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:20 pm But the pattern is clear: any expectation of an imminent eschaton is immediately quashed by the assertion that nobody knows the timing (except God).
OK. I know from recent experience that you have limited patience for identifying literary devices, but this isn't even a "literary" device: it's doubletalk. This is how some people in real life speak and write.

Example: Yesterday, I attended a commercial auction preview. One of the lots included what appeared to be a baseball autographed by Cal Ripken Jr., sealed inside a clear plastic box. Along with the ball, also sealed in, was what described itself across the top as a

Certificate of Authenticity

The certificate was signed at the bottom (I didn't recognize the name) and serial numbered.

In between, the document "certified" in easy-to-read print that what was in the box was a baseball bearing an

authentic facsimile signature

of the famous athlete.

Hmm. There it is, in plain English, for all to see, a phrase flatly defeating what the prospective buyer might hope to have found, an authentic celebrity autograph. What begins by declaring itself as a certificate of authenticity is, in fact and in its entirety, a candid admission of inauthenticity.

Postscript to example: And how did this item end up in the auction? Somebody bought it, and expected that somebody else would now buy it from them. Doubletalk works, that's why many folks in the persuasion trades keep some in their toolkit.

In the real world, prophets and retailers of fake autographs have some things in common. Whoever wishes to depict either one realistically in a literary work does well to capture their typical ways of speaking. That includes suggestive doubletalk, served plain, just as the certificate does.

I don't see why you'd object to the above, since you think Mark was a bad writer. I don't. So, please take this post as a remark about what follows from the premise "The author was an elite writer seeking what are now sometimes called magical-realist effects."

I realize that you don't accept that premise, and I am not trying to persuade you to accept the conclusion. I'm just discussing how the problem looks from one of the different perspectives than your own.
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:52 amOK. I know from recent experience that you have limited patience for identifying literary devices....
Really? That was your takeaway from that discussion? :D :cheers:
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

Post by soberxp »

i don't believe in eschato-logical

(Jas) 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near.
(1Pe)1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
( last times)i don't know which Biblical version you use,but mine is "times"
(1Pe)1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

Post by FransJVermeiren »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:27 pmAs for 1 Thessalonians 5.1-2, I do think that 1 Thessalonians is a genuinely Pauline letter, but I also think that it bears interpolations from a later perspective, and that 5.1-11 is one of those interpolations. This current survey is part of my reason for suspecting this: while 4.13-18 belongs firmly to the viewpoint that the resurrection is near, 5.1-11 asserts that nobody can know the times or seasons, comparing the coming to a thief in the night.
Ben, I do agree that 1 Thessalonians is a genuine Pauline letter that has been interpolated, but I do not see two different pens in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and the following 5:1-11. The first paragraph describes how the day of the Lord will turn out, while 5:1-11 says ‘we don’t know exactly when this is going to happen’, emphasizing the suddenness of the arrival of that day.

On rereading 5:1-11 something else stood out for me: a fundamental discrepancy between verse 9-10 and the preceding eight verses of this paragraph.

Verses 9-10 say:
a) That God has not destined us for wrath.
b) That salvation has been obtained through Jesus Christ.
c) That it doesn’t matter whether we (the audience of this writing) are awake or asleep.

In the preceding verse we see:
• Ad a) (wrath): Verse 2 mentions the ‘day of the Lord’, the equivalent of the ‘day of revenge’ in 1QS, in which ‘revenge’ and ‘wrath’ are closely connected. 1QS X:19: I will not grapple with the men of perdition until the Day of Revenge, but my wrath shall not turn from the men of falsehood and I will not rejoice until judgment is made. (my underlining)
How this wrath will work out concretely is described in verse 3: While ‘they’ (the Romans) propagate their Pax Romana (‘There is peace and security’ is a Pax Romana slogan) sudden and total destruction (‘there will be no escape’) will come upon them.
• Ad b) (salvation): Verse 8 speaks of ‘hope of salvation’ on the future day of the Lord, while verse 9 suggests that salvation has already been realized through Jesus Christ.
• Ad c) (waking and sleeping): Verses 4 to 8 are entirely dedicated to day/night dualism: ‘sons of light’, ‘sons of the day’, ‘not sleep’, ‘keep awake’, ‘belonging to the day’ on one hand versus ‘darkness’, ‘be of the night or of darkness’, ‘those who sleep do sleep at night’, ‘those who get drunk are drunk at night’ on the other. Verse 4 says that the audience belongs to the day. The day is positively evaluated and is related to sobriety while the night (the Romans) is negatively depicted and related to drunkenness. The Roman sons of darkness will be overwhelmed by the day of the Lord.

A correlation between the 'day of the Lord' in verse 2 and the ‘wrath’ comment in verse 9 is of course only possible if the alleged interpolator understood that the day of the Lord = the day of revenge = the day of wrath. It is not unlikely that the interpolator knew this equality.

In my opinion not verse 1-11 is an interpolation, but only verses 9-10. The concept of the future ‘day of the Lord’, light/darkness dualism, and a veiled but pronounced anti-Roman tenor belong to the core of Pauline ideation. While Paul says ‘the day of the Lord (the day of wrath) is at hand’, the interpolator says ‘God has not destined us for wrath’; while Paul mentions ‘hope of salvation’ as one of the weapons of those expecting the day of the Lord, the interpolator tells that his audience is destined to obtain salvation (and this salvation is already available) through Jesus Christ; while Paul depicts a sharp dualism between the sons of light who keep awake versus those who are in darkness and sleep at night, the interpolator says that we shall live with Jesus Christ ‘whether we wake or sleep’. It is clear that the interpolator has a different, much more moderate program than Paul. Verses 9-10 completely undermine Paul’s exposition in verse 1-8.
If one would consider 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 to be an interpolation, then verses 9-10 would be an interpolation within an interpolation. Considering the aura of authenticity of verses 1-8 and their contrast with verse 9-10, it is much more likely that verse 1-8 are authentically Pauline, and that verses 9-10 are an interpolation.
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

FransJVermeiren wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:33 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:27 pmAs for 1 Thessalonians 5.1-2, I do think that 1 Thessalonians is a genuinely Pauline letter, but I also think that it bears interpolations from a later perspective, and that 5.1-11 is one of those interpolations. This current survey is part of my reason for suspecting this: while 4.13-18 belongs firmly to the viewpoint that the resurrection is near, 5.1-11 asserts that nobody can know the times or seasons, comparing the coming to a thief in the night.
Ben, I do agree that 1 Thessalonians is a genuine Pauline letter that has been interpolated, but I do not see two different pens in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and the following 5:1-11. The first paragraph describes how the day of the Lord will turn out, while 5:1-11 says ‘we don’t know exactly when this is going to happen’, emphasizing the suddenness of the arrival of that day.

On rereading 5:1-11 something else stood out for me: a fundamental discrepancy between verse 9-10 and the preceding eight verses of this paragraph.

Verses 9-10 say:
a) That God has not destined us for wrath.
b) That salvation has been obtained through Jesus Christ.
c) That it doesn’t matter whether we (the audience of this writing) are awake or asleep.
Okay, you are certainly onto something, because there are some famous issues with 5.9-10 which I skirted in the OP. Great observation(s).

First, I agree with your first point above (a).

Second, I disagree with your second point above (b). The destining or appointing of believers for salvation is certainly in the past (ἔθετο, aorist), but the salvation itself is still most likely in the future (εἰς περιποίησιν σωτηρίας), which is consistent with Pauline thought elsewhere.

Third, your third point above (c) is part of those famous issues in verses 9-10. Being awake versus asleep is, in these two verses, either a metaphor for being alive versus being dead, exactly as it is in the first half of the entire passage in question, or it is a metaphor for being morally alert versus morally not alert, exactly as it is in the second half.

Let us run with the former possibility:

1 Thessalonians 4.13-15: 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep [τῶν κοιμωμένων], that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [τοὺς κοιμηθέντας] in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep [τοὺς κοιμηθέντας].

1 Thessalonians 5.9-10: 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep [εἴτε γρηγορῶμεν εἴτε καθεύδωμεν], we will live together with Him.

Two problems become apparent. First, the verbs are different (κοιμάομαι versus καθεύδω). Second, while καθεύδω can easily be a metaphor for death, it is apparently pretty hard to find other examples of γρηγορέω as metaphors for life.

Okay, so let us run with the latter possibility:

1 Thessalonians 5.3-8: 3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep [μὴ καθεύδωμεν] as others do, but let us be awake [γρηγορῶμεν] and sober. 7 For those who sleep [καθεύδοντες] do their sleeping [καθεύδουσιν] at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

The verbs are the same here as in verses 9-10, and the moral sense of the metaphor is evident throughout. So far so good. What is very difficult to imagine, however, is anybody penning verses 9-10 with the thought that, meh, whether you are morally awake or morally asleep, everything is going to be fiiiiiine.

It is possible, as you acknowledge, that we have three different textual layers here: 1 Thessalonians 4.13-18, followed by 1 Thessalonians 5.1-8, 11, followed by 1 Thessalonians 5.9-10. Complex, but possible. Our interpolator must have been quite the libertine to look at all those injunctions to be morally awake in 5.1-8 and add what s/he did in 5.9-10. If the waking and sleeping in verses 9-10 must be moral, then I would hold that the interpolator tried to get too cute, hearkening back to the metaphor of physical life and death while bearing with the same words used to contrast moral alertness with moral laxity.

But my preference is to take them as meaning life and death. Indeed, whenever I read these verses, I never even think of the moral alternative until something or someone jumps out and reminds me of that possibility. Maybe that is just the Christian child still living somewhere deep inside me. At any rate, it is easy to find Paul elsewhere treating physical life and death as options of equal value or merit:

Romans 14.7-9: 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

2 Corinthians 7.3: 3 I do not speak to condemn you; for I have said before that you are in our hearts to die together and to live together.

Philippians 1.19-20: 19 For I know that this shall turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I shall not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ shall even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

So it seems quite possible to me that καθεύδω here means physical death, just as it does in Daniel 12.2 LXX, and that usage suggested the opposite but far less common metaphor for physical life, γρηγορέω. This meaning ties 5.9-10 together with 4.13-18; and, accounting for the suspicious repetition between 4.18 and 5.11, we get one of the two following scenarios (green being Pauline and red being the interpolation):

1 Thessalonians 4.13-5.11 (option 1):

4.13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

5.1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety," then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

1 Thessalonians 4.13-5.11 (option 2):

4.13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

5.1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety," then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

I freely admit that both the use of a different verb and the rare use of γρηγορέω as a metaphor for being physically alive bother me a bit. What bothers me even more, however, is how neatly 5.1-3 (at least) undercuts the immediacy of 4.13-18, and in exactly the same way as outlined in other passages listed in the OP, not to mention the use to which the church fathers put the motif of the unknown time and the fact that 2 Peter 3 specifically mentions difficulties in Paul's epistles in the context of faulty beliefs which can be overcome by realizing that the Lord will come like a thief (!).

Incidentally, the bit about "peace and security/safety" made my list some time ago of potential Christian responses to imperial propaganda.
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

Post by soberxp »

Try thinking like this
no matter how................... l..................o ...................n.......................g...........................history.......till the end of the world.

people A :this is a Separate timeline...no matter what asleep or sober ..till the end of the world = physical death,earth still stood (BC:2000)
people B : ditto....................................................................till the end of the world =physical death,earth still stood (BC:1500)
people C : ditto....................................................................till the end of the world =physical death,earth still stood (BC:1000)
people D : ditto....................................................................till the end of the world =physical death,earth still stood (BC:500)
people E : ditto....................................................................till the end of the world =physical death,earth still stood (BC:250)
people F : ditto....................................................................till the end of the world =physical death,earth still stood (BC:100)
e t c :ditto....................................................................till the end of the world =physical death,earth still stood (AD:50000)

through Jesus Christ.
That salvation has been obtained

Rev)21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

people A : after physical death, start with a new world .....................................................the Kingdom of Heaven。
people B : ditto...... .........................a new world .....................................................the Kingdom of Heaven。
people C : ditto...... .........................a new world .....................................................the Kingdom of Heaven。
people D : ditto...... ......................... a new world .....................................................the Kingdom of Heaven。
people E : ditto...... .........................a new world .....................................................the Kingdom of Heaven。
people F : ditto...... ......................... a new world .....................................................the Kingdom of Heaven。
e t c :ditto...... ......................... a new world .....................................................the Kingdom of Heaven。
how about this ,
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

soberxp wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:08 pmTry thinking like this
Trying... trying....
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

Post by Secret Alias »

So you got him now. He was puzzled by the Eve-Mary continuum in Irenaeus in my thread, a concept which doesn't seem half as difficult or incredible as seeing bats flying out of toasters or whatever happened to soberxp last night is for the rest of us to comprehend ...
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

Post by Secret Alias »

I like that actual religious people or even 'normal people' can't fathom what it is that we do here. My wife doesn't understand it either. My son thinks we 'criticize' the Bible - so we spend all day cursing and thinking up ways to disprove the Bible (which for some isn't far off the mark). But for soberxp he naturally (natural to him I guess) assumes that as a religious forum we should be receptive to his supernatural experience and like him we are all undergoing visionary encounters with angels and gods. If only life was that interesting
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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