Why Jesus was despised by Celsus's Jew as "coming from Egypt"

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Why Jesus was despised by Celsus's Jew as "coming from Egypt"

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Ulan wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 9:55 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 9:52 am
Ulan wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 9:50 am Still, this doesn't explain why someone who could be identified by the moniker "the Egyptian" was able to raise such a large number of followers.
My faith in the numbers found in our texts (Josephus, Acts) is pretty low.
Sure. For example, I doubt very much the population numbers Josephus gives for Jerusalem. However, if you can reliably identify someone by the name "the Egyptian", it should be someone who at least has some notoriety. On the other hand, it shouldn't exactly be common for Egyptians to reach such a position, or the "name" doesn't work anymore.
I have wondered before why, if the author of Acts knew Josephus, he reduced the Egyptians' followers from 31,000 to a "mere" 4,000. It occurs to me, however, that perhaps the author of Acts did not want the number of rebels to overshadow the number of Christians in the early Jerusalem church, which he reports as around 5,000 in Acts 4.4. Alternatively (or even additionally), perhaps the numbers in Josephus are corrupt.
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John2
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Re: Why Jesus was despised by Celsus's Jew as "coming from Egypt"

Post by John2 »

Ben wrote:
I have wondered before why, if the author of Acts knew Josephus, he reduced the Egyptians' followers from 31,000 to a "mere" 4,000. It occurs to me, however, that perhaps the author of Acts did not want the number of rebels to overshadow the number of Christians in the early Jerusalem church, which he reports as around 5,000 in Acts 4.4. Alternatively (or even additionally), perhaps the numbers in Josephus are corrupt.
I think it's because Luke/Acts only knew/used Josephus' Antiquities, which does not mention the 30,000 followers, and not the Jewish War, which does mention the 30,000 followers.

Ant. 20.8.6:
Moreover, there came out of Egypt about this time to Jerusalem one that said he was a prophet, and advised the multitude of the common people to go along with him to the Mount of Olives, as it was called, which lay over against the city, and at the distance of five furlongs. He said further, that he would show them from hence how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down; and he promised them that he would procure them an entrance into the city through those walls, when they were fallen down. Now when Felix was informed of these things, he ordered his soldiers to take their weapons, and came against them with a great number of horsemen and footmen from Jerusalem, and attacked the Egyptian and the people that were with him. He also slew four hundred of them, and took two hundred alive. But the Egyptian himself escaped out of the fight, but did not appear any more. And again the robbers stirred up the people to make war with the Romans, and said they ought not to obey them at all; and when any persons would not comply with them, they set fire to their villages, and plundered them.


War 2.13.5:
But there was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round about from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives, and was ready to break into Jerusalem by force from that place; and if he could but once conquer the Roman garrison and the people, he intended to domineer over them by the assistance of those guards of his that were to break into the city with him. But Felix prevented his attempt, and met him with his Roman soldiers, while all the people assisted him in his attack upon them, insomuch that when it came to a battle, the Egyptian ran away, with a few others, while the greatest part of those that were with him were either destroyed or taken alive; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed every one to their own homes, and there concealed themselves.
So I take the reference to 4000 followers in Acts 21:38 as a "guestimate" based on the Antiquities' "multitude of the common people."
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Re: Why Jesus was despised by Celsus's Jew as "coming from Egypt"

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John2 wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 10:44 am Ben wrote:
I have wondered before why, if the author of Acts knew Josephus, he reduced the Egyptians' followers from 31,000 to a "mere" 4,000. It occurs to me, however, that perhaps the author of Acts did not want the number of rebels to overshadow the number of Christians in the early Jerusalem church, which he reports as around 5,000 in Acts 4.4. Alternatively (or even additionally), perhaps the numbers in Josephus are corrupt.
I think it's because Luke/Acts only knew/used Josephus' Antiquities, which does not mention the 30,000 followers, and not the Jewish War, which does mention the 30,000 followers.

Ant. 20.8.6:
Moreover, there came out of Egypt about this time to Jerusalem one that said he was a prophet, and advised the multitude of the common people to go along with him to the Mount of Olives, as it was called, which lay over against the city, and at the distance of five furlongs. He said further, that he would show them from hence how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down; and he promised them that he would procure them an entrance into the city through those walls, when they were fallen down. Now when Felix was informed of these things, he ordered his soldiers to take their weapons, and came against them with a great number of horsemen and footmen from Jerusalem, and attacked the Egyptian and the people that were with him. He also slew four hundred of them, and took two hundred alive. But the Egyptian himself escaped out of the fight, but did not appear any more. And again the robbers stirred up the people to make war with the Romans, and said they ought not to obey them at all; and when any persons would not comply with them, they set fire to their villages, and plundered them.


War 2.13.5:
But there was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round about from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives, and was ready to break into Jerusalem by force from that place; and if he could but once conquer the Roman garrison and the people, he intended to domineer over them by the assistance of those guards of his that were to break into the city with him. But Felix prevented his attempt, and met him with his Roman soldiers, while all the people assisted him in his attack upon them, insomuch that when it came to a battle, the Egyptian ran away, with a few others, while the greatest part of those that were with him were either destroyed or taken alive; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed every one to their own homes, and there concealed themselves.
So I take the reference to 4000 followers in Acts 21:38 as a "guestimate" based on the Antiquities' "multitude of the common people."
That is a good thought, though I hesitate to affirm that the author of Acts knew the compendious Antiquities 11-20 but not the probably more accessible Wars. Steve Mason seems to find quite a few parallels between Acts and the Wars, not just between Acts and the Antiquities.

But what do you think is going on with those passages I have highlighted above? Josephus claims that most of the Egyptians' followers were either slain or captured alive; at the same time, Josephus claims that 400 were slain and 200 were captured alive; and, finally, at the same time again, Josephus claims that the Egyptian had 30,000 followers. Something is not adding up, no matter how you slice or dice it.

Something I have thought about before but never pursued is this: what if the author of Acts did not know Josephus at all, but rather Justus of Tiberias (especially his Chronicle)? Maybe some of these discrepancies between Acts and Josephus are actually correspondences between Acts and Justus. (There may be something which immediately disqualifies such an hypothesis; if so, what is it? As I said, I have not pursued it yet at all beyond the bare idea.)
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Re: Why Jesus was despised by Celsus's Jew as "coming from Egypt"

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It's hard to check such a hypothesis. Of course, you put your finger on one of the issues everyone dealing with that time faces: we can only work with what we know, and of course we can pick our comparisons only from what we know and build relationships between these texts, even though they may not have existed. So, sure, it's possible. You cannot make a viable hypothesis out of this though.

We are unfortunately caught in some kind of tunnel vision.
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Re: Why Jesus was despised by Celsus's Jew as "coming from Egypt"

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Joseph D. L. wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 10:48 pm Jesus/Joshua represents the spirit crossing from Egypt, which represented captivity and slavery, and the material to Kabbalists, and into the Holy land of Israel. Moses's death is emulated by Jesus dying, but his resurrection is marked as becoming Christ (Philippians 2:8-11).

Coming out of Egypt, seems to be a trend among messianic men: the Egyptian (obviously), Yeshu ben Stada, Jonathan the Weaver, Lukuas, and Jesus.
My understanding has always been that "Egypt" was associated with magic engaged in by "serious" magicians who actually think they can control elemental daemons to effect their will (not to do party tricks or entertain). The "Egyptian" is said to have come to make the impossible happen, using something like a talisman or elaborate spell that he believed would do the trick for him. Looking through the book Greek Magical Papyri in Translation, an Egyptian "Magus" was often expected to maintain extensive and very elaborate apparatus strategically placed or buried for use as needed, to complete a spell. These texts became enormously popular in the last half of the 3rd century (250-300) but there is a lot to suggest that a good part of it developed at earlier times.

3rd century CE Jewish traditions held that Jesus was thought to have acquired the knowledge of the proper pronunciation of the divine name (YHVH), which he used in spells, but because there is another spell in effect that makes people forget the pronunciation soon after they learn it, Jesus ended up writing it on a piece of parchment, rolled it up, cut his skin open, and sewed it inside the cut, to take out as needed, effectively a talisman. Another tradition says he had the word tattooed to his skin for the same reason. Whether Jesus really acquired the knowledge of the name, or the means by which it could be retained for re-use in spite of forgetting it each time, in Egypt, or was just suspected of having acquired such an elaborate plan to make use of it for magic spells in that region, "Egyptian" would be a suitable derogatory term to use against him.

Of course, what Judeans thought about Jesus in the 3rd-4th century CE may have had nothing at all to do with the "real" Jesus(es) who may have served as nucleoli for the Jesus myth to form around.

DCH :scratch:
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Re: Why Jesus was despised by Celsus's Jew as "coming from Egypt"

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Of course Egypt (or an idealistic version) was believed to be the birth of knowledge and wisdom by Greeks. Why so many well respected philosophers--Thales, Pythagoras, Plato, and a few others--were said to have inherited their philosophy from Egypt. However true this is, is another issue; but that it was believed by many to be true is what's important.

This even extends to Judaism and Christianity. To Manetho, Moses was a priest to the god Osiris in Heliopolis; while Artapanus believed Moses was a great philosopher and poet in Egypt. The author(s) of Acts writes that:

Moses was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and he was mighty in his words and deeds.

But Egypt also represented the Land of bondage to Jews; and to Kabbalahists, the lower material realm.

Coming "out of Egypt" was to emphasize not only their messianic nature, but that they were greater Moses, who died before entering the Promised Land. Joshua, in this instance, represents the Christ who continues after the death of his predecessour to ensure his people reach Israel.
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