i need a little help: Mark & 3 John

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

if you have a minute for a crazy thing

There are a few catchwords in Mark 9:33-50 - for example the anachronistic phrase „because ye belong to Christ” or “in my name” echoed in Mark 13:3-13 (Signs of the Close of the Age). So I thought Mark 9:33-50 is a post-easter story, retrojected by Mark ("let the reader understand"). There are other catchwords for example “called the twelve”, “receive“, “cast out demons” echoed in Mark 6:7-13 (Jesus sends out the twelve Apostles.) So I thought it´s a retrojected story about apostolic mission. Then I was looking for a source in the Pauline epistles , but I ended up with 3 John .

Mark 9:35 - 39

3 John 9-10

“35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first (πρῶτος – prôtos), the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. 36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, 37 Whosoever shall receive (δέξηται – dexêtai) of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. 38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid (κωλύετε – kôluete) him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.”

“9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence (φιλοπρωτεύων – philoproteuon)among them, receiveth (ἐπιδέχεται – epidexêtai) us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth (κωλύει – koluei) them that would, and casteth them out of the church.”

Does anyone know or have a theory or helpful thoughts about this stuff? It seems striking to me, cannot go over ...

[neilgodfrey]

Now this is potentially interesting. (Potentially -- one swallow and all that.) It is not that difficult to argue that the Gospel of John is a reworking of the Gospel of Mark. Yet though the Gospel and the Johannine epistles have significant differences, they do clearly belong to a "single school".

I'd be interested if the case could be strengthened with more instances.

[JoeWallack]

if you have a minute for a crazy thing

There are a few catchwords in Mark 9:33-50 - for example the anachronistic phrase „because ye belong to Christ” or “in my name” echoed in Mark 13:3-13 (Signs of the Close of the Age). So I thought Mark 9:33-50 is a post-easter story, retrojected by Mark ("let the reader understand"). There are other catchwords for example “called the twelve”, “receive“, “cast out demons” echoed in Mark 6:7-13 (Jesus sends out the twelve Apostles.) So I thought it´s a retrojected story about apostolic mission. Then I was looking for a source in the Pauline epistles , but I ended up with 3 John .

Mark 9:35 - 39

3 John 9-10

“35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first (πρῶτος – prôtos), the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. 36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, 37 Whosoever shall receive (δέξηται – dexêtai) of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. 38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid (κωλύετε – kôluete) him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.”

“9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence (φιλοπρωτεύων – philoproteuon)among them, receiveth (ἐπιδέχεται – epidexêtai) us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth (κωλύει – koluei) them that would, and casteth them out of the church.”

Does anyone know or have a theory or helpful thoughts about this stuff? It seems striking to me, cannot go over ...

A Little Help From My Friends

JW:
9:38-40

38 John said unto him, Teacher, we saw one casting out demons in thy name; and we forbade him, because he followed not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man who shall do a mighty work in my name, and be able quickly to speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is for us.

JW:
Granny Wallack sez that if you are looking for a source you are better off looking before than after. The theme of the above is that you do not have to be a follower of Jesus to be a follower of Jesus. Oh, sorry spin. You do not have to be a disciple of Jesus to be a disciple of Jesus. Hmm, this is harder than I thought. Okay, you do not have to be a literal, historical disciple of Jesus, such as Peter or James, to be a promoter of Jesus.

Ya know, figuring out religious writings is just like doing taxes, the key is trying to figure out what the right question is. Now who was there before any Gospel narrative who had a theme that you did not have had to know/come before in order to be a promoter of Jesus?


Joseph

ErrancyWiki

[DCHindley]

Wow! I am impressed!

The same word (in different grammatical forms, which does not bother me at all), and the same relative order. Either the author of 3 John 9-10 was drawing on Mk 9:35-39, the reverse, or both drew from a common source/tradition.

To me, there is a stylistic connection between parts of the canonical gospel of John and all three epistles of John, but I've never felt there was a connection between the above books and the gospel of Mark.

As many know, Morton Smith had suggested that the "Secret Gospel of Mark" quoted by the author of the fragment of the letter of Clement to Theodore, was a sister to the canonical Gospel of Mark, although fuller in details and theology, and served as an outline for the canonical gospel of John.

I've never really seen this suggestion developed, as say, a synopsis of Mark & John. However, the vocabulary in question (πρῶτος, δέξηται & κωλύετε in Mark 9:35-39, or φιλοπρωτεύων, ἐπιδέχεται & κωλύει in 3 John 9-10) doesn't have much of a connection with the gospel of John.

According to A Gospel Harmony by Rev John Steinmueller (1942), which I use sometimes to see where the narrative of the gospel of John overlaps with passages in the Synoptic Gospels, there is no overlap with this passage in Mark.

Searching the internet, I do find any hits that seem to directly connect Mark 9:35-39 and 3 John 9-10.

Do you have any ideas that might explain the connection you have detected?

DCH

if you have a minute for a crazy thing

There are a few catchwords in Mark 9:33-50 - for example the anachronistic phrase „because ye belong to Christ” or “in my name” echoed in Mark 13:3-13 (Signs of the Close of the Age). So I thought Mark 9:33-50 is a post-easter story, retrojected by Mark ("let the reader understand"). There are other catchwords for example “called the twelve”, “receive“, “cast out demons” echoed in Mark 6:7-13 (Jesus sends out the twelve Apostles.) So I thought it´s a retrojected story about apostolic mission. Then I was looking for a source in the Pauline epistles , but I ended up with 3 John .

Mark 9:35 - 39

3 John 9-10

“35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first (πρῶτος – prôtos), the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. 36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, 37 Whosoever shall receive (δέξηται – dexêtai) of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. 38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid (κωλύετε – kôluete) him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.”

“9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence (φιλοπρωτεύων – philoproteuon)among them, receiveth (ἐπιδέχεται – epidexêtai) us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth (κωλύει – koluei) them that would, and casteth them out of the church.”

Does anyone know or have a theory or helpful thoughts about this stuff? It seems striking to me, cannot go over ...

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Do you have any ideas that might explain the connection you have detected?

No, but I was always wondering that the second cycle of the Passion prediction is not symmetrical to the first and third. I think the structure is

1. Passion prediction, 2. Misunderstanding of the disciples, 3. Instructions for disciples. In the second cycle the immediate instruction is missing:

,

	first cycle	second cycle	third cycle
Passion prediction	Mark 8:31 „And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again.“	Mark 9:31 „... for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him. And when he is killed, after three days he will rise.”	Mark 10:33 „... saying, See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and deliver him over to the Gentiles. And they will mock him and spit on him, and flog him and kill him. And after three days he will rise.”
Misunderstanding	Mark 8:32 „And he said this plainly. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him ...“	Mark 9:32 „But they did not understand the saying, and were afraid to ask him.“ ???	Mark 10:35 „And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you. 36 And he said to them, What do you want me to do for you? And they said to him, Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory. Jesus said to them, You do not know what you are asking ..."
Instructions	Mark 8:34 „And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me ...	????????????	Mark 10:42 „And Jesus called them to him and said to them, You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you ...“

I think the symmetrical instruction of the second cycle should be Mark 10:29: „Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time ...“

Maybe Mark 10:28 "Peter began to say to him, See, we have left everything and followed you.” is part of the Misunderstanding of the second cycle.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Granny Wallack sez that if you are looking for a source you are better off looking before than after.

Yes, charge me, you are fully right, but look the problem is even greater. I was dreaming that the gospel of Mark is wrapped in white linen, but now I wake up and see this dirty Johannine insertions (?) or what ever it is.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

The problematic phrase in Mark 9:35 is absent in the Codex Bezae. Maybe the other two similarities are not so striking? Therefore Codex Bezae is here probably original? So all is good?

Codex Bezae	Majority reading
9:35 τοτε καθισας εφωνησεν τους ιβ tote kathisas ephônêsen tous dôdeka Then he sat down and called the twelve	9:35 καὶ καθίσας ἐφώνησεν τοὺς δώδεκα καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς· Εἴ τις θέλει πρῶτος εἶναι ἔσται πάντων ἔσχατος καὶ πάντων διάκονος. kai kathisas ephônêsen tous dôdeka kai legei autois ei tis thelei prôtos einai estai pantôn eschatos kai pantôn diakonos And he sat down and called the twelve. And he said to them, “If anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all ...

[DCHindley]

I see that in codex D (Bezae) verse 35 omits "και λεγει αυτοις ει τις θελει πρωτος ειναι εσται παντων εσχατος και παντων διακονος" ("If any one would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all"). In verse 37, εν is omitted and the text has δεξηται (verb subjunctive aorist middle 3rd person singular from δέχομαι) instead of δεχηται (verb subjunctive present middle 3rd person singular from same verb) apparently in both occurrences. I don't see a variant for κωλύετε in verse 39, but the NA apparatus is notoriously difficult to read.

It does not totally surprise me that part of verse 35 is omitted by D, because the parallels in Matthew 18:1-5 and Luke 9:46-48 speak only of μειζων (greatest) as in Mark 9:34, but nothing about being πρωτος (first), so it is really a harmonization.

What I did notice in verse 38 was that it was the apostle John who said they forbade an exorcist from expelling demons in Jesus' name. I suppose that if 3 John is a pseudepigraph, the author chose this section of Mark 9 as a source because John is said to have learned something from Jesus about forbidding and receiving and competition for rank. However, he chose to use the language style of the gospel of John to make it seem plausible as something from John's mouth/pen.

Interesting ...

DCH

The problematic phrase in Mark 9:35 is absent in the Codex Bezae. Maybe the other two similarities are not so striking? Therefore Codex Bezae is here probably original? So all is good?

Codex Bezae	Majority reading
9:35 τοτε καθισας εφωνησεν τους ιβ tote kathisas ephônêsen tous dôdeka Then he sat down and called the twelve	9:35 καὶ καθίσας ἐφώνησεν τοὺς δώδεκα καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς· Εἴ τις θέλει πρῶτος εἶναι ἔσται πάντων ἔσχατος καὶ πάντων διάκονος. kai kathisas ephônêsen tous dôdeka kai legei autois ei tis thelei prôtos einai estai pantôn eschatos kai pantôn diakonos And he sat down and called the twelve. And he said to them, “If anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all ...

[Solo]

I see that in codex D (Bezae) verse 35 omits "και λεγει αυτοις ει τις θελει πρωτος ειναι εσται παντων εσχατος και παντων διακονος" ("If any one would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all"). In verse 37, εν is omitted and the text has δεξηται (verb subjunctive aorist middle 3rd person singular from δέχομαι) instead of δεχηται (verb subjunctive present middle 3rd person singular from same verb) apparently in both occurrences. I don't see a variant for κωλύετε in verse 39, but the NA apparatus is notoriously difficult to read.

It does not totally surprise me that part of verse 35 is omitted by D, because the parallels in Matthew 18:1-5 and Luke 9:46-48 speak only of μειζων (greatest) as in Mark 9:34, but nothing about being πρωτος (first), so it is really a harmonization.

What I did notice in verse 38 was that it was the apostle John who said they forbade an exorcist from expelling demons in Jesus' name. I suppose that if 3 John is a pseudepigraph, the author chose this section of Mark 9 as a source because John is said to have learned something from Jesus about forbidding and receiving and competition for rank. However, he chose to use the language style of the gospel of John to make it seem plausible as something from John's mouth/pen.

Interesting ...

DCH

The problematic phrase in Mark 9:35 is absent in the Codex Bezae. Maybe the other two similarities are not so striking? Therefore Codex Bezae is here probably original? So all is good?

Codex Bezae	Majority reading
9:35 τοτε καθισας εφωνησεν τους ιβ tote kathisas ephônêsen tous dôdeka Then he sat down and called the twelve	9:35 καὶ καθίσας ἐφώνησεν τοὺς δώδεκα καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς· Εἴ τις θέλει πρῶτος εἶναι ἔσται πάντων ἔσχατος καὶ πάντων διάκονος. kai kathisas ephônêsen tous dôdeka kai legei autois ei tis thelei prôtos einai estai pantôn eschatos kai pantôn diakonos And he sat down and called the twelve. And he said to them, “If anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all ...

I think M&L and after them the editor of Bezae might have been offended by Jesus' obvious paraphrasing of Paul's 1 Cr 9:19 in Mark 9:35: "For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more."

Best,
Jiri

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Thanks guys. I see just that "πρῶτος" lurks aorund in Mk 10:44, also in Codex Bezae. Like Neil wrote we must go a little bit deeper.

@ Jiri What's your impression ?

Either the author of 3 John 9-10 was drawing on Mk 9:35-39, the reverse, or both drew from a common source/tradition.