Why ex-Zealots identified their leader with the mythical Christ Jesus of the Christians

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Giuseppe
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Why ex-Zealots identified their leader with the mythical Christ Jesus of the Christians

Post by Giuseppe » Tue May 22, 2018 4:53 am

I should thank the genius of the great French mythicist Georges Ory for this suggestion.

The evidence is behind the following episode of Mark:


At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
35 When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.”
36 Someone ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.
37 With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

(Mark 15:33-37)

Please apply the Hermeneutic of Suspect, here.

''Mark'' (apologist) was reacting against recent voices (and ''recent'' here means post-70!!!!) that claimed that Jesus was a seditious Jewish rebel who died in the role of the precursor of the Messiah. See also Mark 13:21.

Basically, according to these voices, the last words of the crucified precursor of the Messiah on the cross were:

''spirit of Elijah, spirit of Eliah, why have you forsaken me?''

So Mark is denying these embarrassing recent voices. It was not John the Baptist the Messiah of the Christians. John the Baptist, as Elijiah-redivivus, was only the mere precursor of the Christ. He was not the same Christ on the cross.

So there is the explanation of the why John the Baptist's memories were coalesced with the growing Jesus legend.

I would doubt even if John's death was a decapitation and not a crucifixion. In the latter case, then the Josephian episode was accordingly an interpolation meant to deny that John was the Christ (since John was not crucified).


But originally, before the 70, there was no link at all between Zealots à la John and the hallucinated apostles/visionaries of the celestial Christ.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why ex-Zealots identified their leader with the mythical Christ Jesus of the Christians

Post by Giuseppe » Tue May 22, 2018 5:26 am

So Ory:

We have outlined (p.103-104) a parallel between John the Baptist and Jesus and have suspected that a confusion could have occurred between them but does this confusion come from the fusion of two different characters or from the duplication of one ?
According to Pistis Sophia, the Gnostic Jesus came into the world in the guise of the angel Gabriel; he cast into Elisabeth (who was going to be the mother of John the Baptist) a virtue he had received from Iao the Good with the soul of Elijah. Then, when John was born, the spirit Jesus came to kiss him and to be confounded with him. John was the body of Jesus, the latter being the spirit of John, and the two being one being.
A different explanation, but leading to a similar result, was provided by Father Joseph Turmel in his Histoire des Dogmes (t.V). According to this ecclesiastical scholar, there were two different Christianities; one in Jerusalem, nationalist and mosaic - the other in Antioch, universalist and Hellenistic. Each movement had its Christ, necessarily opposed to that of the other. A choice was necessary. It was then that Luke, believing that in Jerusalem Jesus was identified with a contemporary baptizer, found the solution of the precursor. For Tourmel, John and Jesus are "one and the same person".
We ourselves have found other arguments in favor of this hypothesis in a previous study, without being persuaded that it corresponds to a reality that escapes us constantly.

(Georges Ory, Le Christ et Jésus, p. 259-260, my free translation)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Why ex-Zealots identified their leader with the mythical Christ Jesus of the Christians

Post by Giuseppe » Wed May 23, 2018 9:23 am

Further indirect evidence that John the Baptist was considered Elija-redivivus and even the True Prophet (i.e. Christ) is found in the Fourt Gospel:


They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the [true] Prophet?”
He answered, “No.”

~ John 1:21


It is clear here that the author is exorcising some ''embarrassing'' voices that wanted John a precursor of the Christ.

But differently from Mark, ''John'' (redactor) is denying here not only the messianic identity of John, but also the his identity with Eliajh-redivivus (the latter being something instead accepted by ''Mark'').

The more probable solution is that the gnostic ''John'' wanted a Jesus who was totally distinct from Judaism, hence without even an Elijah-redivivus as precursor.


While the problem of the more Judaizing ''Mark'' was different: Jesus had to be not confused with Elijah-redivivus (and, by that via, with the historical John the Baptist). But Jesus had to have an Elijah-redivivus as precursor, and ''Mark'' identified him in John the Baptist.

The inference is that the Judaizers, after the 70, began to disturb the gentile Christians by voices and rumors that John the Baptist was the True Prophet (of the Christ) and the Elijah-REDIVIVUS, if not Christ himself.

Against these voices, ''Mark'' (gentile apologist) euhemerized Jesus in order to make clear that Jesus was not John the Baptist.

And other gentile Christians (Gospel of proto-John, Marcion) pointed out that Jesus was totally foreign to Judaism.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
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Re: Why ex-Zealots identified their leader with the mythical Christ Jesus of the Christians

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:58 am

I raise again this thread by adding the following item.

So Luke 1:17
And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

So per the previous incipit, the man on the cross was identified with John the Baptist, moving so "Mark" to deny that the man on the cross invoked Elijiah. In other words, to deny that the Christ was John the Baptist.

The point is that in the Gospel of Peter the man on the cross said:
My Power, my Power, why have you forsaken me?

So this may be an allusion to the same "power" of Elijah.

A reason in more for "Mark" to deny the association of Jesus with John the Baptist.

And another evidence that the GPeter's source precedes Mark.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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