Where didn't Mark preserve the Secret motif ?

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Charles Wilson
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Re: Where didn't Mark preserve the Secret motif ?

Post by Charles Wilson » Sun May 27, 2018 10:45 pm

Giuseppe --

Do you read "Lord" as "Mar-Yah"?

CW

Giuseppe
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Re: Where didn't Mark preserve the Secret motif ?

Post by Giuseppe » Mon May 28, 2018 12:36 am

Charles Wilson wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 10:45 pm
Giuseppe --

Do you read "Lord" as "Mar-Yah"?

CW
No idea you are talking about.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Charles Wilson
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Re: Where didn't Mark preserve the Secret motif ?

Post by Charles Wilson » Mon May 28, 2018 5:56 am

Thank you.

CW

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Martin Klatt
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Re: Where didn't Mark preserve the Secret motif ?

Post by Martin Klatt » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:23 am

Nearly all my contributions to any topic on this board will be in light of my hypothesis that GMark is a so called Menippean satire play from head to tail, but I will try deploying my elaborations in all seriousness, just that you know.

Reasons for secrecy, as in hiding your identity? Embarrassment, perceived danger to your person or could it be something else?
Let's look at the first instance in GMark where Jesus seems concerned about his identity:

Chapter 1
16As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen.
17“Come, follow Me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men.
18And at once they left their nets and followed Him.
19Going on a little farther, He saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat, mending their nets.
20Immediately Jesus called them, and leaving their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men, they followed Him.
21Then Jesus and His companions went to Capernaum, and as soon as the Sabbath began, Jesus entered the synagogue and began to teach.
22The people were astonished at His teaching, because He taught as one who had authority, and not as the scribes.
23Suddenly a man with an unclean spirit cried out in the synagogue:
24“What do You want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!”
25But Jesus rebuked the spirit and said, “Be silent! Come out of him!”

You notice I included the preceding recruitment of the 4 first disciples, that's because the smoking gun is right there. Jesus is now a gang leader and ready to take on the world with all kinds of confidence trickery. His first gig in the synagogue almost bungled because the stupid disciple didn't follow orders and called him by his real name. When you do public quack healings of any sort with accomplices ready to play, first rule is you don't know each other. Gotcha.

Now the clever thing is Mark turns this theme upside down and inside out at will and does some brilliant variations, my favourite being the scene at Jesus' home town where everybody already knows him and that turns out to cause his failure. Top notch satire.
Last edited by Martin Klatt on Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Martin Klatt
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Re: Where didn't Mark preserve the Secret motif ?

Post by Martin Klatt » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:32 pm

On closer inspection of the exorcism in the synagogue the satire is even more outrageous than I assumed earlier. Let's see how the rest of the pericope plays out and I'll explain why:

25But Jesus rebuked the spirit and said, “Be silent! Come out of him!”
26At this, the unclean spirit threw the man into convulsions and came out with a loud shriek.
27All the people were amazed and began to ask one another, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him!”

Now in the earlier lines the man with the unclean spirit (a discipel)was crying out in the synagogue. After the rebuke and command to silence, the text says the spirit left him with a loud shriek, but the people were amazed that the spirit obeyed the commands. How about the command of silence? I have been looking at the Greek wording and the so called loud shriek that sounded could be better translated as "a loud noise sounding came out of him". And I mean not out of his mouth because of the acknowledged obeying of the command. I propose he farted because he was nervously unsettled(convulsions) by the harsh words of Jesus and didn't know how to make the required noise otherwise, after all it was a debutant performance for him. I should've seen it earlier, but it's in the open now. Another hilarious joke unveiled.
What I have written, I have written........., but it ain't necessarily so.

Giuseppe
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Re: Where didn't Mark preserve the Secret motif ?

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:40 am

It is curious that none of the comments above identifies Mark 15:48-50 as another point of break of the Messianic Secret in (proto-)Mark by ''Mark'' (redactor):
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:24 am
Neil does an interesting question:
How would you go about determining that such passages in Mark were composed to counter Marcionism and not that Marcion came later and disagreed with such passages?
https://vridar.org/2018/06/17/is-this-s ... ment-85729

My answer may be not to his same his level:
Thank you for the optimal question, Neil.

My answer: Since Mark 15:48-50 breaks the Messianic Secret in proto-Mark, by having a Jesus who remembers to his enemies the fact that he was not an unknown person (i.e. unknown as a robber is by definition) but was someone *very well known* during the day. So it is an anti-marcionite interpolation.
So I have found another break of the Messianic Secret in proto-Mark by "Mark". :cheers:
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Where didn't Mark preserve the Secret motif ?

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:49 am

Following the logic of the previous comment above, I wonder if even the Barabbas episode breaks someway the Messianic Secret. Afterall, it is an attempt to identify with more precision Jesus by contrasting him against anohter man (Jesus Barabbas) who surely is not him (since he is a brigand and the true Jesus can't be a brigand).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Martin Klatt
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Re: Where didn't Mark preserve the Secret motif ?

Post by Martin Klatt » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:14 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:40 am
It is curious that none of the comments above identifies Mark 15:48-50 as another point of break of the Messianic Secret in (proto-)Mark by ''Mark'' (redactor):

In my Bible these lines are missing. What are you talking about?
What I have written, I have written........., but it ain't necessarily so.

Giuseppe
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Re: Where didn't Mark preserve the Secret motif ?

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:25 am

Martin Klatt wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:14 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:40 am
It is curious that none of the comments above identifies Mark 15:48-50 as another point of break of the Messianic Secret in (proto-)Mark by ''Mark'' (redactor):

In my Bible these lines are missing. What are you talking about?
Ops, I mean Mark 14:48-50. Follow the link above.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Martin Klatt
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Re: Where didn't Mark preserve the Secret motif ?

Post by Martin Klatt » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:32 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:25 am
Martin Klatt wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:14 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:40 am
It is curious that none of the comments above identifies Mark 15:48-50 as another point of break of the Messianic Secret in (proto-)Mark by ''Mark'' (redactor):

In my Bible these lines are missing. What are you talking about?
Ops, I mean Mark 14:48-50. Follow the link above.
14:48-50 doesn't make sense either, that's the arrest near Gethsemane scene, why don't you tell us, where the connection is with the rest you are telling us, Barabbas?
Last edited by Martin Klatt on Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
What I have written, I have written........., but it ain't necessarily so.

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