Why Pilate? Pontius Pilate, and the Man of Pontos

[Joseph D. L.]

Please forgive the sensationalist title.

Let me just say that I don't question--or better, I do not see a reason to doubt--the historicity of Pilate. But, and while I disagree with Giuseppe on practically every point and argument he has brought forward, I too have wondered why Pilate was chosen as the face of the Romans in the Gospel(s)? Why, if the tale is a), predominantly allegorical, and b) a second century product, why would Pilate be selected as the man to issue the death of Jesus? (And Giuseppe, just because Jews demanded the death of Jesus, it was still those gentile Romans who scorched him and crucified him, making a Jewish "apology" meaningless and unnecessary).

Now keep in mind my above statement when reading this, but I think--think--Pilate and Marcion are, within the context of the Christian tradition and theology, the same thing.

Consider the following...

1) Both Pilate and Marcion are gentiles who become converts to Judaism and Christianity

2) Pilate and Paul persecute the chosen of God

3 Pontius Pilate and Marcion of Pontus are, by their respective name and epithet, associated with water, sailing, ships, and merchants

Let me be clear when I say that how Pilate has been thought in association with Christianity is not true at all. Pilate, probably, ordered the death of Judas the Galilean, and there may be a carryover from this in Christianity... but insofar as our modern canon and understanding goes, Pilate may as well be fictional, or traditional.

Thoughts and criticisms are welcome.

[Giuseppe]

And Giuseppe, just because Jews demanded the death of Jesus, it was still those gentile Romans who scorched him and crucified him, making a Jewish "apology" meaningless and unnecessary

now I don't think more that the Earliest Gospel was written by a gentile Christian. My last thread on Pilate has totally persuaded me that the only theological function of Pilate is the same function of Judas Iskarioth: "who handed" Jesus to the Jews. So now, if Jesus is "betrayed" by Pilate and not more by Judas, then the judaizers cannot claim more that Jesus was "their own" Christ. This explanation makes perfect sense to me.

After the 70 CE, the Jewish Christians invented the story that the Jews crucified directly Jesus.

And later only a gentile Gnostic Christian introduced Pilate for the reasons described above.

[Joseph D. L.]

After 70 ad? Try after bar Kochba. You speak as if Christianity in any form was active in the first century, when everything came as a response to Hadrian and the Kitos revolt. Both Lukuas and Simon bar Kochba were killed by Romans; Yeshu ben Stada was killed by Jews. At no point was there an attempt to place blame on the other parties. Thus your entire premise is predicated on a completely arbitrary distinction between gentiles and a Jews, and is circular.

[Giuseppe]

whatever date you prefer. My basic point remains: the Pilate item was a gentile Gnostic anti-judaic item. Entirely foreign to the first story.

[Joseph D. L.]

What original story? Pilate was crucial to the first layer of the tradition, not only because he gave a temporal anchour to the story, but also personified the Noahidic aspect of it. How is it anti-Judaic? when it emphasizes the importance of Jewish traditions. It's like people who say Marcion was anti-Judaic, despite depending on Jewish traditions.

[Ben C. Smith]

Please forgive the sensationalist title.

[Joseph D. L.]

Please forgive the sensationalist title.

It was tongue and cheek of course.

[Joseph D. L.]

What I'm suggesting is that Pilate served the same role as Marcion did and that the two may be interchangeable.

[Ben C. Smith]

Please forgive the sensationalist title.

It was tongue in cheek of course.

That was clear.

[arnoldo]

3 Pontius Pilate and Marcion of Pontus are, by their respective name and epithet, associated with water, sailing, ships, and merchants

According to the source below, Pontius is a name from a hilly area in south central Italy.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3313