Ancient Christians and the Military?
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:19 pm
What ancient references do we have for this?
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
Jax,
I think you are referring to the Martyrdom of DasiusDCHindley wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:05 am .....................................
In one case, a Christian serving in a Legion, went along with a private lottery in which soldiers of his Legion made an oath that whoever of them upon whom the lot fell would kill himself by cutting his own throat. The Christian went along with the lottery, until he was the person selected by lot, upon which he confessed his faith, as he could not in good conscience commit suicide. Whether he was drummed out dishonorably or was sentenced to execution I do not recall.
I agree, it is kind of strange, but not totally unbelievable. What benefit would Christians have realized to justify making it up?andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:01 amI think you are referring to the Martyrdom of DasiusDCHindley wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:05 am .....................................
In one case, a Christian serving in a Legion, went along with a private lottery in which soldiers of his Legion made an oath that whoever of them upon whom the lot fell would kill himself by cutting his own throat. The Christian went along with the lottery, until he was the person selected by lot, upon which he confessed his faith, as he could not in good conscience commit suicide. Whether he was drummed out dishonorably or was sentenced to execution I do not recall.
This is a very strange story of questionable historicity.
Andrew Criddle
It seems to connect Polycarp or intimate a relationship with Polycarp and the conversion/militarization of the barbarian converts. My sense is that:To which course many nations of those barbarians who believe in Christ do assent, having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit, without paper or ink, and, carefully preserving the ancient tradition, believing in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and all things therein, by means of Christ Jesus, the Son of God; who, because of His surpassing love towards His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin, He Himself uniting man through Himself to God, and having suffered under Pontius Pilate, and rising again, and having been received up in splendour, shall come in glory, the Saviour of those who are saved, and the Judge of those who are judged, and sending into eternal fire those who transform the truth, and despise His Father and His advent. Those who, in the absence of written documents, have believed this faith, are barbarians, so far as regards our language; but as regards doctrine, manner, and tenor of life, they are, because of faith, very wise indeed; and they do please God, ordering their conversation in all righteousness, chastity, and wisdom. If any one were to preach to these men the inventions of the heretics, speaking to them in their own language, they would at once stop their ears, and flee as far off as possible, not enduring even to listen to the blasphemous address. Thus, by means of that ancient tradition of the apostles, they do not suffer their mind to conceive anything of the [doctrines suggested by the] portentous language of these teachers, among whom neither Church nor doctrine has ever been established.
IMVHO the original story has Dasius refusing as a Christian to take a leading part in a pagan festival and being executed as a consequence.DCHindley wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:11 pmI agree, it is kind of strange, but not totally unbelievable. What benefit would Christians have realized to justify making it up?andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:01 am
I think you are referring to the Martyrdom of Dasius
This is a very strange story of questionable historicity.
Andrew Criddle
DCH
But why does this need to be reconciled? Why can't Paul be both a retired soldier and a advocate for Christ? What is his message after all? That God will make things right for those that believe in the Christ (the people that Paul is writing to) that the bad people will get their come uppings and that even though some of the good people have died already (fallen asleep) they too will get reborn with heavenly bodies and be rewarded.DCHindley wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:05 amJax,
I know there have been modern studies that cover the subject.
My recollection was that they surveyed early Christian statements regarding christians who did serve as soldiers, and I believe that at first Christians did not seek to serve in the armies maintained by the Romans (Legions & Auxiliaries). There is the pagan worship of military standards and oaths of loyalty to the genius of the emperor that soldiers had to perform in public, and of course, the fact that a soldiers' job was to kill the enemy.
This aversion to killing in war is also what drives Mennonites to shave off their mustaches but also grow beards, as symbolic of their passivism. European soldiers of the time of Menno Simon, the founder of this sect, *all* grew big bushy mustaches but not beards.
Then that started to change, IIRC, in the 3rd centuries (possibly pagan soldiers who converted while in service (the service term was 20+ years!). The authorities seem to have had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy.
In one case, a Christian serving in a Legion, went along with a private lottery in which soldiers of his Legion made an oath that whoever of them upon whom the lot fell would kill himself by cutting his own throat. The Christian went along with the lottery, until he was the person selected by lot, upon which he confessed his faith, as he could not in good conscience commit suicide. Whether he was drummed out dishonorably or was sentenced to execution I do not recall.
Tertullian was the son of a retired Centurion, and he had no problem considering himself a faithful Roman, but it does not seem he condoned service in the Army for Christians.
I don't think that it was until the early 4th century and the accession of Constantine the Great as sole emperor that Christians could openly serve.
If you are correct in your hunch that Paul's language was like a soldier (retired) speaking to other soldiers (also retired) then it has to still explain all the Christ talk in them.
DCH
Well, I just wanted to stress that Christians didn't seem to me military minded types until about the time of Tertullian. Now there's a guy who was a super duper macho male chauvinist pig who kept his wife out of sight, the son of a long retired Legionary Centurion, and he was all gung ho for the Roman state as an institution. However, military participation was not an option for him for the reasons I had previously expressed. Possibly a few choice words were spoken by his dad over evening meals as a family. It doesn't seem T's dad was alive when he wrote, nor his mom, but he was raised a Christian, possibly by his mother as a widow.Jax wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:18 amBut why does this need to be reconciled? Why can't Paul be both a retired soldier and a advocate for Christ? What is his message after all? That God will make things right for those that believe in the Christ (the people that Paul is writing to) that the bad people will get their come uppings and that even though some of the good people have died already (fallen asleep) they too will get reborn with heavenly bodies and be rewarded.
All that these people that Paul is talking to need to do is believe, get along with each other, refrain from bad sex, put their heads down and work, and "oh, yeah" put a little money aside for Paul to take back to Jerusalem with him.
Or am I missing something?