Peter in Rome and Eusebius

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Peter in Rome and Eusebius

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:47 pm

John2 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:26 pm
I think the proof that Simon Magus (whether he existed or not or was Josephus' Atomos/Simon or not) was not a Samaritan could be that he preached in Jerusalem in addition to Samaria.

Acts 8:9:
Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria.
Why would a Samaritan preach in Jerusalem, the home of the Jewish Temple?
I think "the city" in view is the city of Samaria (= Sebaste):

Acts 8.4-10: 4 Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word. 5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them. 6 The crowds with one accord were giving attention to what was said by Philip, as they heard and saw the signs which he was performing. 7 For in the case of many who had unclean spirits, they were coming out of them shouting with a loud voice; and many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 So there was much rejoicing in that city. 9 Now there was a man named Simon, who formerly was practicing magic in the city and astonishing the people of Samaria, claiming to be someone great; 10 and they all, from smallest to greatest, were giving attention to him, saying, “This man is what is called the Great Power of God.”

Right?
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Re: Peter in Rome and Eusebius

Post by John2 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:49 pm

Ben wrote:
Right?
Right.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.

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Re: Peter in Rome and Eusebius

Post by John2 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:55 pm

Though there appears to be some question as to which Samaritan city it refers to, but yeah, Sebaste is a good guess and it's clearly not Jerusalem (which also blows my Felix and Drusilla connection between Josephus' Atomos/Simon and Simon Magus).
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.

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Re: Peter in Rome and Eusebius

Post by John2 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:04 pm

But ... it still doesn't necessarily mean that Simon was a Samaritan. Philip preached there too; does that mean he was a Samaritan?

Acts 8:1-8:
On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria ... Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went. Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Messiah there. When the crowds heard Philip and saw the signs he performed, they all paid close attention to what he said. For with shrieks, impure spirits came out of many, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. So there was great joy in that city.
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Re: Peter in Rome and Eusebius

Post by andrewcriddle » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:38 am

The Didascalia (early to mid 3rd century) has
Now the beginning of heresies was on this wise. Satan clothed himself in a certain Simon, one that was a magician and his minister of old; and when we, by the gift of the Lord our God and by the power of the Holy Spirit, were working miracles of healing in Jerusalem, and by the laying on of our hand the fellowship of the Holy Spirit was given [cf. Acts 8.17-19] to those who drew nigh (to the faith), then he offered us much money [Acts 8.18], and desired that, as he had deprived Adam of the knowledge of life through eating of the tree, so by the gift of money he might deprive us also of the gift of God, and might take captive our minds with the bestowal of possessions, to the end that we should barter away and give to him for money the power of the Holy Spirit. Hereupon were we all stirred up; then Peter looked upon Satan, who was dwelling in Simon, and said to him: Thy money go with thee to perdition: but thou shalt have no part in this word [Acts 8.20-21].

[vi. 8] (p. 101) But when we had divided the whole world into twelve parts, and were gone forth among the Gentiles into all the world to preach the word [cf. Mk 16.15; Mt 28.19], then Satan set about and stirred up the People to send after us false apostles for the undoing of the word. And he sent out from the People one whose name was Cleobius, and joined him to Simon, and others also after them. [vi. 9] Now the party of Simon followed hard upon me Peter, and came to corrupt the word. And when he was in Rome he disturbed the Church much and subverted many; and he even made a show as though he would fly. And he was capturing the Gentiles, moving them by the power and agency of his magic arts. And on a certain [[202]] day I went and saw him flying in the air; then I stood still, and said: 'By the power of the name of Jesus I cut off thy powers.' And he fell and broke the ankle-bone of his foot. And then many turned back from him; but others, worthy of him, continued with him. And thus was that his heresy first established. And by other false prophets beside was the enemy working. [vi. 10] And they all had one law ?upon earth?, that they should not employ the Torah and the Prophets, and that they should blaspheme God Almighty, and should not believe in the resurrection. And in other respects they were teaching and disturbing (men) with many opinions. For many of them taught that a man should not marry, saying that if one did not marry, this was holiness; and in the name of holiness they were commending the tenets of their heresies. Others again of them taught that a man might not eat flesh, saying that no one might eat any thing wherein there is a soul. But others said that one was bound to abstain from swine's flesh only, but might eat those things which the Law pronounces clean, and that he should be circumcised according to the Law. And some taught this, and some that, causing contentions and disturbing the Churches.

CHAPTER XXIV

On the ordering of the Church: showing also that the Apostles came together for the correction of abuses.

[vi. 11]? Now already we had rightly preached the holy word of the Catholic Church; and we returned once more to come to the Churches, and found men occupied (p. 102) with other opinions. [[204]] For some forsooth were observing holiness; and some abstained from flesh and from wine, and some from swine's flesh; and they were observing (some or other) of all the bonds which are in the Second Legislation.

[vi. 12] When therefore the whole Church was in peril of falling into heresy, all we the twelve Apostles came together to Jerusalem and took thought what should be done. And it seemed good to us, being all of one accord [Acts 15.25], to write this Catholic Didascalia for the confirming of you all. And we have established and set down therein that you worship God Almighty and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit; that you employ the holy Scriptures, and believe in the resurrection of the dead; and that you make use of all His creatures with thanksgiving [cf. 1Tim 4.3]; and that men should marry: for He saith in Proverbs: Of God is a woman betrothed to a man [Prov 19.14]; and in the Gospel again our Lord saith: He that created from the beginning the male, said that he created also the female. Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they two shall be one body. What therefore God hath coupled, let not man separate [Mt 19.4-6; Gen 2.24]. But sufficient for the faithful is the circumcision of the heart, (which is) spiritual, as He said by Jeremiah: Light you a lamp, and sow not among thorns. Be circumcised unto the Lord your God, and circumcise the foreskin of your heart, ye men of Judah [Jer 4.3-4]. And again in Joel He saith: Rend your hearts, and not your garments [Joel 2.13]. And as for baptism also, one is enough for you, even that which has perfectly forgiven you your sins. For Isaiah said not (only) Wash, but Wash, and be cleansed [Isa 1.16].

Now we had much questioning, as men contending for life; and not we the Apostles only, but also the people, together with James the bishop of Jerusalem, who is our Lord's brother after the flesh, and with his presbyters and deacons and all the Church. For also some days before, certain men had come [[206]] down from Judaea to Antioch, and were teaching the brethren, (saying): Except ye be circumcised and conduct yourselves according to the law of Moses, and keep yourselves clean from meats, and all the rest, ye cannot be saved; and they had much conflict and questioning [Acts 15.1-2], And when the brethren of Antioch knew that we were all assembled and come to make inquiry of these matters, they sent to us (p. 103) certain men (that were) believers and had knowledge. of the Scriptures to learn concerning this question, And when they were come to Jerusalem, they related to us [Acts 15.4] the controversy which they had in the Church of Antioch, And there rose up certain (men) who had believed from the sect of the Pharisees, saying: Ye ought to be circumcised and to keep the law of Moses [Acts 15.5]. And others also were crying out and saying in like manner. Then I Peter rose up and said to them:? 'Men, brethren, ye yourselves know that from the first days when I was among you, God made choice that by my hands the gentiles should hear the gospel and believe. And God, who proveth the hearts, gave witness of them [Acts 15.7-8]; for to Cornelius, a certain centurion, there had appeared an angel and told him of me; and he sent for me. But when I was ready to go to him, it was shown me concerning the Gentiles that they were about to believe, and concerning all meats. For I 9had gone up to a housetop to pray; 11and I saw the heavens opened, and a certain vessel, that was tied by its four corners, being lowered and let down upon the earth; 12and there were therein all manner of fourfooted beasts and creeping things of the earth and fowls of the heaven.? 13And there came to me a voice [[207]]? saying: Simon, arise, slay and eat. 14But I said: God forbid, Lord, for I have never eaten any thing defiled and profane. 15And there came to me again another voice, the second time, saying: W hat God hath made clean, do not thou make profane. 16Now this was done thrice: and the vessel was taken up to heaven [Acts 10.9-16 (11.4-10)]. Thereupon I bethought me, and understood the word of the Lord [Acts 11.16], how that He had said: Rejoice, ye gentiles, with the people [Dt 32.43 (Rom 15.10)], and that everywhere He had spoken of the calling of the Gentiles; and I rose up and went my way. And when I was entered into his house and had begun to speak the word of the Lord, the Holy Spirit lighted down upon him and upon all the Gentiles that were there present [Acts 11.15]. God, then, hath given the Holy Spirit to them even as to us, and hath made no distinction between us and them in the faith, and he hath cleansed their hearts. Now therefore, why tempt ye God, that ye should lay a yoke upon the necks of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ we believe that we shall be saved even as they also [Acts 15.8-11]. For our Lord came and released us from those bonds, and said : Come unto me, all ye that toil and are laden with heavy burdens , and I will give you rest. (p. 104) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is pleasant, and my burden is light [Mt 11.28-30]. If then our Lord has released and unburdened us, why will ye lay snares for your own selves?'

13Then all the people was silent; and I James answered and said: Men, brethren, hear me. 14Simon hath told how formerly God said that he would choose him out a people from the gentiles to his name: 15whereunto agree the words of the prophets, as it is written: 16Hereafter will I raise up and build the tabernacle of David, that is fallen; and the ruins thereof [[208]] will I build and raise up; 17that the residue of men may seek the Lord, and all the gentiles upon whom my name is called, 18saith the Lord who maketh known these things from everlasting.? 19Wherefore I say, that no man vex them that turn to God from among the gentiles, 20but that word be sent them on this wise: that they abstain from evil (practices), and from idols, and from that which is sacrificed, and from that which is strangled, and from blood. 22Then we the apostles and the bishops and the elders, together with the whole church, thought it well to choose out men front amongst them and send them (to Antioch) in company with Barnabas and Paul, who were come thence. And we chose and appointed Judas, who was called Barsabbas, and Silas, notable men among the brethren, 23and wrote by them as followeth : --The apostles and elders and brethren to the brethren who are of the gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting. 24Forasmuch as we have heard that some have troubled you with words, that they might corrupt your souls, whom we sent not: 25we have determined, being all assembled together, to choose out and send men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and his companions, whom ye sent (hither). 27And we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you of these things by word (of mouth). For it hath seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, that no further burden be laid upon you, save that ye abstain from (these) necessary things: 29from that which is sacrificed, and from blood, and from that which is strangled, and from fornication. And from these keep yourselves, and do well. Fare ye well [Acts 15.13-29].
Although no Emperors are named, having Peter in Rome confronting Simon before the Apostolic Conference of Acts 15 seems to imply Peter is in Rome in the time of Claudius. The account of Peter and Simon Magus seems based on the Acts of Peter. This is evidence of a pre-Eusebian tradition of Peter in Rome before Nero and seems to be a 3rd century modification of the Acts of Peter in which the confrontation in Rome with Simon has been disassociated from the death of Peter.

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Re: Peter in Rome and Eusebius

Post by John2 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:11 pm

Ben wrote:

Interestingly, Elymas in Acts 13 is both a Cypriot and a magician, and Bezae renders his name with Ἐτοίμας, which resembles a Greek adjective meaning "ready," but also resembles a cross between Elymas and Atomos:

Is Elymas/Etoimos in Acts 13:6-11 the same person called Bar Jesus? And if not, could Elymas/Etoimos be Simon the magician in Acts 8 (and Josephus' Simon/Atomus)? And what does Acts mean by "Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means)"? Is the author saying that the name Elymas/Etoimos means "sorcerer"?

They traveled through the whole island as far as Paphos, where they found a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, a man of intelligence, summoned Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith.

Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked directly at Elymas and said, “O child of the devil and enemy of all righteousness, you are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery! Will you never stop perverting the straight ways of the Lord? Now look, the hand of the Lord is against you, and for a time you will be blind and unable to see the light of the sun.” Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand.

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Re: Peter in Rome and Eusebius

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:40 pm

John2 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:11 pm
Ben wrote:
Interestingly, Elymas in Acts 13 is both a Cypriot and a magician, and Bezae renders his name with Ἐτοίμας, which resembles a Greek adjective meaning "ready," but also resembles a cross between Elymas and Atomos:
Is Elymas/Etoimos in Acts 13:6-11 the same person called Bar Jesus? And if not, could Elymas/Etoimos be Simon the magician in Acts 8 (and Josephus' Simon/Atomus)? And what does Acts mean by "Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means)"? Is the author saying that the name Elymas/Etoimos means "sorcerer"?
Not in Greek or Latin; I can attest to that much. Here are a couple of commentaries on the matter:

Richard I. Pervo, Commentary on Acts (Hermeneia), page 326: 326 As Susan Garrett shows, Paul and Bar-Jesus “represent superhuman figures.” In literary terms, their function is symbolic. The magus, now identified as “Elymas,” with the incomprehensible explanation that renders this name or title,* took exception to the pair.

* Luke otherwise uses such expressions to provide Greek equivalents of foreign words. Haenchen..., for example, assumes that “magus” interprets “Elymas.” He has normal word order on his side; the difficulty is the abrupt introduction of “Elymas.” Jervell... says that it may represent Aramaic haloma (“magician”), but this does not convince Fitzmyer...: “No one knows what it means.”

Craig S. Keener, Exegetical Commentary on Acts, volume 2, page 2016: 2016 The origin of Luke’s basis for translating “Elymas” as “magician,” if that is what he is doing, is unclear, though Arabic (‘alîm, “wise man,” perhaps “magician”) and Hebrew (hōlēm, “dream interpreter”) cognates have been proposed. If “El” means “God,” it might connect with “Jesus” (as in “Bar-Jesus”) for Luke’s audience on a theological level, but this is an extreme stretch. Even if Luke were from Syrian Antioch (a tradition I do not consider very likely), he, as an urbanite, may have known little Aramaic; most of his target audience would know even less. The closest LXX term would seem to be “Elamite” (Tob 2:10; Jdt 1:6; 1 Macc 6:1; Dan 8:2); an association with Persia could then provide the connection with μάγος here, but this also seems far-fetched. Probably by “translated” Luke simply intends “understood to mean” in a nontechnical manner (cf. Acts 4:36).

Keener, at least, is probably motivated to make as much sense as possible of the text; if things are unclear to him, then they are truly unclear, I think.


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Re: Peter in Rome and Eusebius

Post by John2 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:37 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:40 pm
John2 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:11 pm
Ben wrote:
Interestingly, Elymas in Acts 13 is both a Cypriot and a magician, and Bezae renders his name with Ἐτοίμας, which resembles a Greek adjective meaning "ready," but also resembles a cross between Elymas and Atomos:
Is Elymas/Etoimos in Acts 13:6-11 the same person called Bar Jesus? And if not, could Elymas/Etoimos be Simon the magician in Acts 8 (and Josephus' Simon/Atomus)? And what does Acts mean by "Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means)"? Is the author saying that the name Elymas/Etoimos means "sorcerer"?
Not in Greek or Latin; I can attest to that much. Here are a couple of commentaries on the matter:

Richard I. Pervo, Commentary on Acts (Hermeneia), page 326: 326 As Susan Garrett shows, Paul and Bar-Jesus “represent superhuman figures.” In literary terms, their function is symbolic. The magus, now identified as “Elymas,” with the incomprehensible explanation that renders this name or title,* took exception to the pair.

* Luke otherwise uses such expressions to provide Greek equivalents of foreign words. Haenchen..., for example, assumes that “magus” interprets “Elymas.” He has normal word order on his side; the difficulty is the abrupt introduction of “Elymas.” Jervell... says that it may represent Aramaic haloma (“magician”), but this does not convince Fitzmyer...: “No one knows what it means.”

Craig S. Keener, Exegetical Commentary on Acts, volume 2, page 2016: 2016 The origin of Luke’s basis for translating “Elymas” as “magician,” if that is what he is doing, is unclear, though Arabic (‘alîm, “wise man,” perhaps “magician”) and Hebrew (hōlēm, “dream interpreter”) cognates have been proposed. If “El” means “God,” it might connect with “Jesus” (as in “Bar-Jesus”) for Luke’s audience on a theological level, but this is an extreme stretch. Even if Luke were from Syrian Antioch (a tradition I do not consider very likely), he, as an urbanite, may have known little Aramaic; most of his target audience would know even less. The closest LXX term would seem to be “Elamite” (Tob 2:10; Jdt 1:6; 1 Macc 6:1; Dan 8:2); an association with Persia could then provide the connection with μάγος here, but this also seems far-fetched. Probably by “translated” Luke simply intends “understood to mean” in a nontechnical manner (cf. Acts 4:36).

Keener, at least, is probably motivated to make as much sense as possible of the text; if things are unclear to him, then they are truly unclear, I think.


Alright then, and just for the sake sake of simplicity, rather than there having been two high level influential Jewish magicians from Cyprus associated with Christianity, could it be that Bar Jesus/Elymas/Etoimos and Simon Magus/Atomus were the same person?

Let's say there was a Cypriot Jew named Simon bar Jesus who had the ear of high level officials in Cyprus and Jerusalem and a nickname associated with magic (Elymas/Etoimus/Atomus/Magus) and Josephus and Acts talk about him (with one calling him Simon/Atomus and the other calling him Bar Jesus/Elymas/Etoimos). Then the only problem would be why does Acts not identify the Elymas/Etoimos of chapter 13 with the Simon of chapter 8? Could chapter 13 have come from a source that called Simon "Bar Jesus/Elymas/Etoimos" and the author of Acts didn't recognize him as being the same person (and why would the source also not identify him as Simon)?

In other words, were there two highly influential Jewish magicians from Cyprus in the early/mid first century CE, Josephus' Simon/Atomus and this Elymas fellow in Acts 13? And a third magician (Simon) in Acts 8 (who in my view is in any event erroneously thought to have been from Samaria)?

I don't doubt that there were "magicians" galore in the first century CE, but these three seem like they could be one.

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Peter in Rome and Eusebius

Post by Steven Avery » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:35 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:31 pm
Runia notes that Jerome expanded upon Eusebius's original statement:
The meeting with Peter took place when Philo visited Rome a second time for an audience with Claudius;9 the two men formed a friendship, and this is why Philo was so favourably disposed to the followers of Peter's disciple Mark
https://books.google.com/books?id=SPvsp ... us&f=false
Feldman adds the reference Jerome de viris illustribus 11 and cf 8. The meeting is alleged to have happened by Orosius at the beginning of Claudius's reign https://books.google.com/books?id=10pDA ... us&f=false
Just a tweak. I do not think that Paulius Orosius references Philo with Peter, just Peter in Rome.

He does mention Philo here:

Orosius: Book 7 - Historiarum adversus paganos, 7:6:15ff - likely using Josephus
https://sites.google.com/site/demontort ... sius_book7
At this time the Jews, already harassed by misfortunes everywhere as a retribution for Christ's passion, were crushed in a riot that had broken out in Alexandria. They were driven from the city. Thereupon they commissioned a certain Philo, unquestionably a scholar of the first rank, to go as their representative to the emperor and set forth their grievances. But Caligula, who hated mankind in general, particularly detested the Jews. He therefore treated Philo's mission with contempt and commanded that all the holy places of the Jews, and especially that famous ancient sanctuary in Jerusalem, should be profaned with heathen sacrifices and filled with statues and images. He also gave orders that he himself should be worshipped there as a god. When Pilate, the governor who had pronounced the death sentence upon Christ and who had been the instigator as well as the object of many riots in Jerusalem, received this order, he was so tormented that he stabbed himself with his own hand and so quickly put an end to his miseries.
Philo ... Embassage to the Emperor C. Caligula, of whom Josephus speaks particularly in the 10th Chapter of the 18th Book of the Jewish Antiquities,
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A4628 ... w=fulltext

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