What is the door of Jesus?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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What is the door of Jesus?

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:19 am

According to Hegesippus, "the door of Jesus is the Saviour".

According to the Naassenes:

These same Phrygians, however, he says, affirm again that this very (man), as a consequence of the change, (becomes) a god. For, he says, he becomes a god when, having risen from the dead, he will enter into heaven through a gate of this kind. Paul the apostle, he says, knew of this gate, partially opening it in a mystery, and stating that he was caught up by an angel, and ascended as far as the second and third heaven into paradise itself; and that he beheld sights and heard unspeakable words which it would not be possible for man to declare. 2 Corinthians 12:2

(Hippolytus, 5)

It would seem that the words of Hegesippus assume a distinction between the "gate" of Jesus (=the spiritual possession by a divine Christ) and Jesus himself.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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John T
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Re: What is the door of Jesus?

Post by John T » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:59 pm

I joined this forum years ago trying to elicit a scholarly (respectful) discussion on that same subject.

Lesson learned from the first go around---since you cannot discuss the Door of Jesus without acknowledging the martyrdom of James the Just, meaning, that to acknowledge James the Just (the brother of Jesus) is to imply (ex post facto) that Jesus existed as well--- was taboo.
In other words, to make the argument that Jesus did exist as historical fact could result in calls for you to be banned from this forum as a fundamentalist and/or evangelist.
Such is the closed minded, dirty tactic of (pseudo-atheist) anti-Christians.

Now, years later, perhaps this forum is a little more open minded to your topic.

Still, I recommend you proceed with caution.

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift

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Jax
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Re: What is the door of Jesus?

Post by Jax » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:56 pm

John T wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:59 pm
I joined this forum years ago trying to elicit a scholarly (respectful) discussion on that same subject.

Lesson learned from the first go around---since you cannot discuss the Door of Jesus without acknowledging the martyrdom of James the Just, meaning, that to acknowledge James the Just (the brother of Jesus) is to imply (ex post facto) that Jesus existed as well--- was taboo.
In other words, to make the argument that Jesus did exist as historical fact could result in calls for you to be banned from this forum as a fundamentalist and/or evangelist.
Such is the closed minded, dirty tactic of (pseudo-atheist) anti-Christians.

Now, years later, perhaps this forum is a little more open minded to your topic.

Still, I recommend you proceed with caution.

John T
A link please.

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arnoldo
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Re: What is the door of Jesus?

Post by arnoldo » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:20 pm

Last edited by arnoldo on Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

John2
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Re: What is the door of Jesus?

Post by John2 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:46 am

I think it's the door (or doors) of heaven through which Jesus went after his resurrection and will go through again (and others will go through) when he "comes on the clouds of heaven," in keeping (as things in Hegesippus tend to be) with the Letter of James and Revelation.

James 5:7-9:
Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!


Rev. 3:7-8:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut.
Rev. 3:11-12:
I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.
Rev. 3:20-21:
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.


Hegesippus in EH 2.23.12-13:
The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: "You just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus." And he answered with a loud voice, "Why do you ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man? He himself sits in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven."
Hegesippus in EH 3.20.6:
And when they were asked concerning Christ and his kingdom, of what sort it was and where and when it was to appear, they answered that it was not a temporal nor an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly and angelic one, which would appear at the end of the world, when he should come in glory to judge the quick and the dead, and to give unto every one according to his works.
You've got to get into (and out of) heaven somehow, I guess, and a door (or doors) seems apt.
Trouble with you is the trouble with me, we got two good eyes but we still don't see.

John2
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Re: What is the door of Jesus?

Post by John2 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:01 pm

Regarding the part Giuseppe mentioned in the OP, while it does strike me as being more ambivalent, I would guess that James' answer there pertains only to Jesus rather than to the door (or gate), and in any event it too is in keeping with the Letter of James and Revelation above.

Hegesippus in EH 2.23.8-9:
Now some of the seven sects, which existed among the people and which have been mentioned by me in the Memoirs, asked him, 'What is the gate of Jesus?' and he replied that he was the Saviour. On account of these words some believed that Jesus is the Christ. But the sects mentioned above did not believe either in a resurrection or in one's coming to give to every man according to his works. But as many as believed did so on account of James.


Again, it seems "logical" that someone coming from (or going to) heaven would go through a door (or gate).
Trouble with you is the trouble with me, we got two good eyes but we still don't see.

Giuseppe
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Re: What is the door of Jesus?

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:10 pm

It is not necessary my quote of Hippolitus to realize that "the gate of Jesus is the Saviour" implies that the "Saviour":
1) is not God;
2) is a distinct being from "Jesus". Probably Christ.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Joseph D. L.
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Re: What is the door of Jesus?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:39 pm

The "door"/"gate" of Jesus and Heaven is obviously a metaphor for the the cross, which became syncretized with the cross of the equinox associated with solar gods like Horus, Apollo and Helios. The Pyramid Texts, call these two regions the "Double Doors of the Horizen, and they were the portals through which Re entered and left the Underworld (or in the Books of the Sky, they were the mouth and vagina of Nut, with Re being reborn at dawn). The Oddyssey referes to them as the Gates of the Sun, and Porphyr and Julian (or Iamblicus, can't remember) states that it was through these gates that the soul entered and existed the material realm. (The Jewish custom of opening windows (literal, not figurative) to allow the soul of the newly deceased to leave, is similar in concept). This cross is held by Helios and Apollo as it encircles the celestial globe; and the Lion-headed god of Mithraism stands upon a globe etched with this cross. The zodiac from Denderah shows the equinox occuring in Aries, with Horus depicted right over it, emphazing this as the place where Horus entered the Underworld.

It is also this cross that Plato (or Timaeus if you want to get particular) says was were the demiuge tied the two materials (heavenly and physical) together. Justin Martyr compares not only Jesus's crucifixion with this philosophy, but also Moses placing the brazen serpant upon his staff.

There could also be a subsidiary motive here. Obsereve from Genesis, 7:11:

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

emphasis added

And it is only Johannine material that referes to Jesus as the door.

But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.

This synchs up rather well with the Valentinian model of Stauros being the barrier (door, gate, window, and so forth) seperating the Pleroma and the lower realms. This Stauros figure is predicated on the far older Herm and Hermae boundary markers, which were also used to endow men with greater members and increased fertility. It's also curious if the many depictions of Christ with an obvious phallus on his abdomen is a carryover from this idea.

In summary, here are the main points to consider:

*That the door of Jesus was the cross

*That this cross was associated with the cross of the equinox, which was itself refered to as doors, gates, and windows in various other religions

* That the death of Jesus in John is modeled after the Flood account of Genesis

* This cross was imagined by some Gnostics to be the barrier between this world and the realm of the Pleroma

* And that this cross has connections to the Herm boundary markers, which were used to increase fertility among men

* When taken together, this could mean that the new baptism issued (literally) from Jesus upon his death, was advertently and implicitly, a sexual baptism. (You can imagine what he was actually issuing from himself).

John2
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Re: What is the door of Jesus?

Post by John2 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:09 pm

It is not necessary my quote of Hippolitus to realize that "the gate of Jesus is the Saviour" implies that the "Saviour":
1) is not God;
2) is a distinct being from "Jesus". Probably Christ.
But James doesn't say "it" (i.e., the gate) is the Savior, he says "he" (i.e., Jesus) is the Savior, which I reckon contextually must mean that Jesus is the heavenly savior who will go through the gate ("the gate of Jesus") in order to "come on the clouds of heaven."

And in the big picture, I'm of the opinion these days that James and other early Christians (and Jesus as well) believed that Jesus (or the "Christ" element that had entered into him at some point during his life) was God.
Trouble with you is the trouble with me, we got two good eyes but we still don't see.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: What is the door of Jesus?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:16 pm

John2 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:09 pm
It is not necessary my quote of Hippolitus to realize that "the gate of Jesus is the Saviour" implies that the "Saviour":
1) is not God;
2) is a distinct being from "Jesus". Probably Christ.
But James doesn't say "it" (i.e., the gate) is the Savior, he says "he" (i.e., Jesus) is the Savior....
Correct. The sentence is: Τινὲς οὖν τῶν ἑπτὰ αἱρέσεων τῶν ἐν τῷ λαῷ, τῶν προγεγραμμένων μοι (ἐν τοῖς Ὑπομνήμασιν), ἐπυνθάνοντο αὐτοῦ τίς ἡ θύρα τοῦ Ἰησοῦ, καὶ ἔλεγεν τοῦτον εἶναι τὸν σωτῆρα. Literally, James was saying that "this one" (τοῦτον) was the savior, where "this one" is masculine, in agreement with Jesus (τοῦ Ἰησοῦ), but not in agreement with door/gate (ἡ θύρα), which is feminine.
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