Page 1 of 6
How Did God Crucified Establish Civic Idealism?
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:29 am
by Secret Alias
Here's what Christianity comes down to for me -
1. God comes to earth and is crucified
2. Because of (1) the ideal 'kingdom' viz. the ideal republic is now spread out on the earth
But why should (1) lead to (2)? I've never quite understood this. I've thought to myself that (1) may have been originally conceived as an atonement as we see hinted in Eznik's reporting of the Marcionite divine myth (i.e. where Jesus litigates from the Law and the Creator sees his own culpability). But still there seems to be a few critical links in the chain of logic that have disappeared throughout time. At the bottom is, how does 'God crucified' or 'God crucifixion' manifesting itself in my person (cf. Galatians 6:7 and possibly John 20:27 - 29 if originally conceived as manifesting as in Galatians in a second person) or many people lead to the establishment of the ideal state on the earth?
Re: How Did God Crucified Establish Civic Idealism?
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:04 am
by John T
Secret Alias wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:29 am
Here's what Christianity comes down to for me -
1. God comes to earth and is crucified
2. Because of (1) the ideal 'kingdom' viz. the ideal republic is now spread out on the earth
But why should (1) lead to (2)? I've never quite understood this. I've thought to myself that (1) may have been originally conceived as an atonement as we see hinted in Eznik's reporting of the Marcionite divine myth (i.e. where Jesus litigates from the Law and the Creator sees his own culpability). But still there seems to be a few critical links in the chain of logic that have disappeared throughout time. At the bottom is, how does 'God crucified' or 'God crucifixion' manifesting itself in my person (cf. Galatians 6:7 and possibly John 20:27 - 29 if originally conceived as manifesting as in Galatians in a second person) or many people lead to the establishment of the ideal state on the earth?
That there is the problem.
Secret Alias feels Christianity is open to interpretation as he sees fit (just like Marcion), which makes it easy for him to set up and slay his straw-man.
Can anyone cite any sayings of Jesus that supports Secret Alias interpretation that God came to earth to be crucified?
John T
Re: How Did God Crucified Establish Civic Idealism?
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:37 am
by Ulan
John T wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:04 am
Can anyone cite any sayings of Jesus that supports Secret Alias interpretation that God came to earth to be crucified?
That's more or less the content of the gospel of your namesake.
Edit: At least as long as you subscribe to the trinity. The gospel may have been polytheistic in its outlook. The idea that God gave his son as sacrifice is not really trinitarian in its consequence, given that Jesus Christ is God according to Christian doctrine.
Re: How Did God Crucified Establish Civic Idealism?
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:47 am
by Secret Alias
And if he's god he knows he's going to die when he comes down from heaven. I mean, I admit, Christians pretend like he can 'change his mind' about giving the law to Moses and humanity. But surely when he leaves his house in the morning he's not likely to forget he's gone to get milk. He doesn't get halfway and ask himself 'what have I gone out for again?'
And yes, god can supposedly know the future right?
Re: How Did God Crucified Establish Civic Idealism?
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:58 pm
by John T
Still waiting.
Re: How Did God Crucified Establish Civic Idealism?
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:32 pm
by Secret Alias
He just gave the answer to you. Maybe you should learn to read better.
Re: How Did God Crucified Establish Civic Idealism?
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:48 pm
by Secret Alias
And Romans. The Greek word παραδίδωμι means to give over into the hands or power of someone else, to give something to keep to someone else, to deliver someone over into the custody of another. Lenski writes that it:
always implies handing someone over to what he does not want. It has that force here, for what sinner wants to be handed over to the slavery of God, wants to "be enslaved to righteousness"? He thinks himself free when he is a slave to the sin, and Paul says that he was then free as far as the righteousness is concerned (v. 20). Moreover, Paul has most emphatically said that our deliverance from the sin was no less than having our old man "crucified" with Christ (v. 6). Shall we forget that Pilate παρέδωκεν "delivered," Jesus to be crucified (John 19:16) ? And shall we not note that Jesus himself wanted to be thus delivered, wanted to be crucified, dead, and entombed? "We died with him" (v. 2, 8), "we were entombed with him" (v. 4). For the old sinful self all of this was a terrible thing, its very destruction ; yet, like Christ, we ourselves wanted it, no man is made a Christian against his will. Paul's passive "you were delivered" recalls all of this, and to change it so as to mean that the Christian doctrine "was delivered" to us, is not Paul's meaning. Here, however, "you were delivered" accompanies the idea of being made slaves, slaves to righteousness, obeying as as slaves, obeying the voice of our Master (God) who Christ obeyed.
I've noted there many times that the 'Ebionites' were probably those who followed the will of God to martyrdom, his willing slaves (see the other posts) The underlying sense of Romans is that how Jesus behaved in the gospel (a willing slave to be crucified for his Father) as our role model in terms of slavery to righteousness.
Re: How Did God Crucified Establish Civic Idealism?
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:55 pm
by John T
Secret Alias wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:32 pm
He just gave the answer to you. Maybe you should learn to read better.
Still waiting.
Re: How Did God Crucified Establish Civic Idealism?
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:19 pm
by Secret Alias
We've provided you with two sources that acknowledge between them that Christians believed Jesus or Christ (a) came down from heaven doing the will of his Father/on a mission for his Father and that Jesus or Christ (b) was a slave to righteousness/ on a mission to crucify himself. Better than most arguments around here.
Re: How Did God Crucified Establish Civic Idealism?
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:41 am
by Ulan
This starts resembling that infamous "toe stub" exchange.
@John T: Would you mind explaining what your issue is? Is your real question whether the NT says that, specifically, God the Father comes down to Earth to get sacrificed? If so, you would have had to specify this, as according to the creed of all Christian denominations (Mormons don't apply here), Jesus is God, which makes that distinction moot. The point that he came to Earth from heaven is established in the first verses of gJohn. The point that the sacrifice is the wish of God is established in the Gethsemane episode. Ergo, God came to Earth to get sacrificed.
If you have any issues with this, you should get more specific in your answers and stop playing games here. If you are not a Christian and reject the trinity, be my guest, but that's a different discussion to the thread topic.