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Re: Why the young in the Empty Tomb had to be ''dressed in white''
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:49 am
by Ben C. Smith
Ulan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:48 amThe meaning of the garments and their color on the other hand is clear and doesn't need your detours.
Exactly.
Re: Why the young in the Empty Tomb had to be ''dressed in white''
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:54 am
by Giuseppe
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:48 am
Both in Hippolytus and in Matthew the tomb is a symbol of
death. You are reading what is both (A) unlikely to be there in the first place and (B) not actually there at all anyway.
more precisely, Hippolytus is evidence that the enemies of Hippolytus interpreted a "tomb with the white inside" as allegory of spiritual life.
A) it is logically there as implicit corollary;
B) I am not arguing that the man
is the Risen, attention.
Re: Why the young in the Empty Tomb had to be ''dressed in white''
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:55 am
by Ben C. Smith
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:54 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:48 am
Both in Hippolytus and in Matthew the tomb is a symbol of
death. You are reading what is both (A) unlikely to be there in the first place and (B) not actually there at all anyway.
more precisely, Hippolytus is evidence that the enemies of Hippolytus interpreted a "tomb with the white inside" as allegory of spiritual life.
Re: Why the young in the Empty Tomb had to be ''dressed in white''
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:02 am
by Giuseppe
is, he says, is what has been declared, "Ye are whited sepulchres, full," he says, "of dead men's bones within," because there is not in you the living man
A) dead people inside----->"white" outside
B) "white" inside-----> dead people outside
Differently from Ben, I have not need of textual evidence of (B) when (B) is already the natural corollary of (A) - according to the enemies of Hippolytus, obviously.
Re: Why the young in the Empty Tomb had to be ''dressed in white''
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:20 am
by Ben C. Smith
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:02 amDifferently from Ben, I have not need of textual evidence....
Well said.
Re: Why the young in the Empty Tomb had to be ''dressed in white''
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:22 am
by Ulan
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:02 am
is, he says, is what has been declared, "Ye are whited sepulchres, full," he says, "of dead men's bones within," because there is not in you the living man
A) dead people inside----->"white" outside
B) "white" inside-----> dead people outside
Differently from Ben, I have not need of textual evidence of (B) when (B) is already the natural corollary of (A) - according to the enemies of Hippolytus, obviously.
No, only according to you. The whole idea only exists in your head. A whitewashed tomb is simply a used one with some corpse inside. Unused tombs are not whitewashed.
But I guess I'm done here. Your "natural corollary" only stems from mangling metaphors.
Re: Why the young in the Empty Tomb had to be ''dressed in white''
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:59 am
by andrewcriddle
Ulan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:48 am
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:42 am
Ulan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:39 am
Neither the man nor the angel are the resurrected. Why do you even go there?
Atthention, please: The young man is really already a symbol of resurrection per se. Especially if he is the same young who fleed naked etc.
He is a symbol of the new Christian. In order to be resurrected in the technical sense, he would have had to have died first. There is no indication of that. The meaning of the garments and their color on the other hand is clear and doesn't need your detours. The white garment was used in the baptism ceremony, which was symbolic death, yes. The rebirth in this sense had nothing to do with resurrection in the later sense.
It is highly doubtful if the use of white garments in baptism goes back to the new testament period. See for example
Induere Christum
Andrew Criddle
Re: Why the young in the Empty Tomb had to be ''dressed in white''
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:25 am
by Ulan
andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:59 am
Ulan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:48 am
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:42 am
Ulan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:39 am
Neither the man nor the angel are the resurrected. Why do you even go there?
Atthention, please: The young man is really already a symbol of resurrection per se. Especially if he is the same young who fleed naked etc.
He is a symbol of the new Christian. In order to be resurrected in the technical sense, he would have had to have died first. There is no indication of that. The meaning of the garments and their color on the other hand is clear and doesn't need your detours. The white garment was used in the baptism ceremony, which was symbolic death, yes. The rebirth in this sense had nothing to do with resurrection in the later sense.
It is highly doubtful if the use of white garments in baptism goes back to the new testament period. See for example
Induere Christum
Andrew Criddle
Thanks Andrew. That still leaves all the other uses of white garments by heavenly figures, like in Daniel etc. Or of course in gMark itself, by Jesus during the transfiguration episode in Mark 9:3.
Re: Why the young in the Empty Tomb had to be ''dressed in white''
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:14 am
by Giuseppe
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:20 am
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:02 amDifferently from Ben, I have not need of textual evidence....
Well said.
note the Ben's omission of the my original words:
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:02 am
....of (B) when (B) is already the natural corollary of (A) - according to the enemies of Hippolytus, obviously.