eusebius and origen

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tnorsworthy
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eusebius and origen

Post by tnorsworthy » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:21 am

#1 - I recently read someone citing Origen, Exposition on Proverbs 7.74. I can't find a 7.74 in that work.

#2 - Who is Eusebius quoting in “The Proof of the Gospel,” chapter 6 when he says

“hear what it says as it proclaims the law, which suits not Jews alone, but Greeks and barbarians, and all nations under the sun:
‘O man! and all the human race! the Law of Moses, beginning from one race of men, first called the whole race of the Jews, because of the promise given to their holy forefathers, to the knowledge of the one God, and released its servants from bitter slavery to the daemons. But I am the herald to all men and to the nations of the whole world of a loftier knowledge of God and holiness; I call them to live according to the ideals of those of Abraham's day, and men still more ancient of pre-Mosaic date, with whom many of all races are recorded to have shone in holiness as lights in the world.’

And again:
‘The Law of Moses required all who desired to be holy to speed from all directions to one definite place; but I, giving freedom to all, teach men not to look for |41 God in a corner of the earth, nor in mountains, nor in temples made with hands, but that each should worship and adore Him at home.’

And again:
‘The old law commanded that God should be worshipped by the sacrifice of slain beasts, of incense and fire and divers other similar external purifications. Hut I, introducing the rites of the soul, command that God should be glorified with a clean heart and a pure mind, in purity and a life of virtue, and by true and holy teaching.’

And again:
‘Moses forbade the men of his time who were defiled with blood to kill; but I lay down a more perfect law for those who have him for a schoolmaster and have kept the earlier commandment—when I ordain that men must not be slaves to anger.’

And once more:
‘The Law of Moses enacted to adulterers and the impure that they must not commit adultery, or indulge in vice, or pursue unnatural pleasures, and made death the penalty of transgression; but I do not wish my disciples even to look upon a woman with lustful desire.’"


In prior quotations from this chapter, Eusebius quotes Jeremiah, Zephaniah, Isaiah, Malachi but, I can’t find this above quote anywhere.

Ken Olson
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Re: eusebius and origen

Post by Ken Olson » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:46 am

tnorsworthy wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:21 am

#2 - Who is Eusebius quoting in “The Proof of the Gospel,” chapter 6 when he says

“hear what it says as it proclaims the law, which suits not Jews alone, but Greeks and barbarians, and all nations under the sun:
‘O man! and all the human race! the Law of Moses, beginning from one race of men, first called the whole race of the Jews, because of the promise given to their holy forefathers, to the knowledge of the one God, and released its servants from bitter slavery to the daemons. But I am the herald to all men and to the nations of the whole world of a loftier knowledge of God and holiness; I call them to live according to the ideals of those of Abraham's day, and men still more ancient of pre-Mosaic date, with whom many of all races are recorded to have shone in holiness as lights in the world.’
I believe he's quoting the third way, between Hellenism and Judaism, otherwise known as the true religion (Christianity). He's using the technique of prosopopeia (face-making or character crafting) to personify the true faith and give it a voice.

Best,

Ken

tnorsworthy
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Re: eusebius and origen

Post by tnorsworthy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:40 am

awesome! thanks so much

tnorsworthy
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Re: eusebius and origen

Post by tnorsworthy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:41 am

any ideas on the origen question from the op?

Ken Olson
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Re: eusebius and origen

Post by Ken Olson » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:15 am

No idea about the Origen reference.

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DCHindley
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Re: eusebius and origen

Post by DCHindley » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:46 pm

tnorsworthy wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:21 am
#1 - I recently read someone citing Origen, Exposition on Proverbs 7.74. I can't find a 7.74 in that work.
Did you encounter it here:
Origen uses the word [arsenokoites] in his Expositions on Proverbs (7.74), no full online text available here [unfortunately the link was a dead one]:
On the other hand some were roaming widely--adulterers, temple prostitues and thieves will receive judgment; some wander outside--the ones who pursue lusts contrary to nature, who arsenokoitein and any other parade of forbidden things they can receive; see that there is no accusation against an holy man. Anyone who can't keep still but roams, shares in the accusation of the shameless woman. (Patrologiae Cursus Completus, ed. JP Migne, Patrologiae Graecae Tomus XVII, Origenes, 1857; p. 181-182)
http://michaelcardensjottings.blogspot.com/2012/
That would then mean Migne's PG vol 17, where Origen expounds on Proverbs 7.74. Since there were no chapter:verse divisions in use in Origen's day, how this passage might be identified in the Greek text is anyone's guess, but my guess would be a quotation of various sentences and/or clauses in Proverbs, followed by his exposition.

DCH

Ken Olson
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Re: eusebius and origen

Post by Ken Olson » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:20 am

Good catch David.
On the other hand some were roaming widely--adulterers, temple prostitues and thieves will receive judgment; some wander outside--the ones who pursue lusts contrary to nature, who arsenokoitein and any other parade of forbidden things they can receive; see that there is no accusation against an holy man. Anyone who can't keep still but roams, shares in the accusation of the shameless woman. (Patrologiae Cursus Completus, ed. JP Migne, Patrologiae Graecae Tomus XVII, Origenes, 1857; p. 181-182)
The reference should be to Migne PG 17, col. 181B (for the Greek text containing arsenokoitein). It looks like the number 74 refers to the section number of the Latin translation in col. 182 (No such verse for Proverbs 7).

You can download the PDF of PG 17 here:

http://patristica.net/graeca/#t017

https://books.googleusercontent.com/boo ... BV8vTJQHwg

Col. 181 is on page 100 of the PDF.

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Secret Alias
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Re: eusebius and origen

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:43 am

It should be obvious to any critical observer of the relationship between Origen and Eusebius that Eusebius corrected Origen's writings to rid of heresy (something intimated - albeit cryptically in the exchange between Jerome and Rufinus). Interestingly many of Origen's concerns - such as Celsus's critique of Christianity - become Eusebius's concerns. At least a few of Eusebius's surviving treatises are understood by scholars to have Celsus in mind. To this end, given the fact many of Origen's treatises such as Against Celsus, have clear signs of a second rewrite (attributed to Origen's move from Alexandria to Caesarea) and clear change of NT text type i.e. from the 'Alexandrian' to 'Caesarean' text type (again attributed usually to Origen's move from Alexandria to Caesarea) it is tempting to go one step further than traditional scholarship.

Given that Eusebius was the 'bishop of Caesarea' and in charge of a large library of books which came to define Christianity in the ages to come might the rewrites and change of text types be signs of Eusebius's 'correction' effort rather than something that happened in the time of Origen? I am certain of it. The clearest sign of this is also that Eusebius's hand appears all over surviving copies of the Hexapla. We shouldn't also forget that Pamphilus's name and literary efforts were 'appropriated' by Eusebius in a way that has never satisfactorily been explained.

This 'literary' and 'personality appropriation' had a clear precursor in Irenaeus's appropriation of Polycarp, Justin and the writers before him (even the apostolic writers if you go as far as me). Was Eusebius aware of this appropriation? I think he was and followed Irenaeus's example. If Irenaeus was to be identified with Julius Africanus - for instance - everything would be neatly packaged and explained. Julius Africanus likely set up the library which became the foundation of Eusebius's collection a century later.

The difficulty of course is that there isn't enough evidence to do that. Instead what emerges is the origins and development of Christianity 'coincide' (I would say defined) by a series of crimes in the library. No one would think that 'library abuse' would have such an impact but if we consider that we ourselves are to a large degree held hostage by literary works to define the religions he who controls the manuscripts controls history. Just as the Green family.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: eusebius and origen

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:26 pm

An overt example of Eusebius correcting literary texts in the manner I suspect Origen's were 'purged' of their original 'heresy':
His early training in the scriptorium of Pamphilus' library at Caesarea involved the correcting of Septuagint manuscripts according to Origen's amended Septuagint column in the Hexapla. As a result of the work the Hexaplaric recension of the LXX spread throughout Palestine and Syria.17 For Eusebius himself there was the benefit of a thorough acquaintance with the Hexapla and an initiation to the methods of ancient philology. Colophons in several ancient manuscripts attest to his work.18 His renown as a biblical scholar was such that Constantine appealed to him for fifty copies of the scriptures for divine services in his new capital city, though scholars disagree about the effect this large book order had on the Old or New Testament text in use in Constantinople. https://books.google.com/books?id=ofS9h ... 22&f=false
I suspect that Eusebius did the same thing with (a) the writings of Origen (b) Josephus and to a lesser degree (c) Clement of Alexandria.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: eusebius and origen

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:33 pm

Scrivener:

We are thus warranted, as well from direct evidence as from the analogy of the Old Testament, to believe that Eusebius mainly resorted for his
Constantinopolitan Church-books to the codices of Pamphilus, which might once have belonged to Origen. What critical corrections (if any) he ventured to make in the text on his own judgement is not so clear. Not that there is the least cause to believe, with Dr. Nolan (Inquiry into the
Integrity of the Greek Vulgate, p. 27), that Eusebius had either the power or the will to suppress or tamper with the great doctrinal texts 1 John v.
7, 8; 1 Tim. iii. 16; Acts xx. 28; yet we cannot deny that his prepossessions may have tempted him to arbitrary alterations in other passages, which had no direct bearing on the controversies of his age
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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