Did Marcion place the crucifixion of the his Christ BEFORE the same creation of the Earth by the Demiurge?

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Giuseppe
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Did Marcion place the crucifixion of the his Christ BEFORE the same creation of the Earth by the Demiurge?

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:50 am

The suspect that the answer is 'yes' is raised by the same counter-argument given by Tertullian:

...the wisdom of God was concealed, to be brought to light by and by among the perfect, when the time should come, but pre-ordained in the counsels of God before the ages. 1 Corinthians 2:7 But whose ages, if not the Creator's? For because ages consist of times, and times are made up of days, and months, and years; since also days, and months, and years are measured by suns, and moons, and stars, which He ordained for this purpose (for they shall be, says He, for signs of the months and the years), it clearly follows that the ages belong to the Creator, and that nothing of what was fore-ordained before the ages can be said to be the property of any other being than Him who claims the ages also as His own. Else let Marcion show that the ages belong to his god. He must then also claim the world itself for him; for it is in it that the ages are reckoned, the vessel as it were of the times, as well as the signs thereof, or their order. But he has no such demonstration to show us. I go back therefore to the point, and ask him this question: Why did (his god) fore-ordain our glory before the ages of the Creator? I could understand his having predetermined it before the ages, if he had revealed it at the commencement of time. But when he does this almost at the very expiration of all the ages of the Creator, his predestination before the ages, and not rather within the ages, was in vain, because he did not mean to make any revelation of his purpose until the ages had almost run out their course. For it is wholly inconsistent in him to be so forward in planning purposes, who is so backward in revealing them.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03125.htm

The fool apologist Tertullian is talking really like a Mythicist (and I don't know if it is a merit for the Mythicists - and a real compliment for myself! -, or a real offence!):


1) Marcion preached that the his Alien God ''fore-ordained our glory before the ages of the Creator'''

2) if (1) is true, then the Alien God had made Jesus crucified by the rulers (and by the Demiurge) ''at the commencement of time'', i.e. before the entire creation of the earth by the Demiurge.

3) But Jesus was crucified very recently, ''under Pilate'', and not ''at the commencement of time''.

4) So the God who ''fore-ordained our glory before the ages'' is the same Creator, the god of the Jews.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Did Marcion place the crucifixion of the his Christ BEFORE the same creation of the Earth by the Demiurge?

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:55 am

Clearly for Paul what was recent is the revelation of the Christ crucified.

But not the act of the crucifixion per se.

So the error of Tertullian was to believe that the revelation of the ''Christ crucified'' coincides with the act itself of the crucifixion.

But it is no longer open to me even to interpret the princes and powers of this world as the Creator's, since the apostle imputes ignorance to them, whereas even the devil according to our Gospel recognised Jesus in the temptation, Matthew 4:1-11 and, according to the record which is common to both (Marcionites and ourselves) the evil spirit knew that Jesus was the Holy One of God, and that Jesus was His name, and that He had come to destroy them.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.


lsayre
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Re: Did Marcion place the crucifixion of the his Christ BEFORE the same creation of the Earth by the Demiurge?

Post by lsayre » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:34 am

arnoldo wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:53 am
http://biblehub.com/revelation/13-8.htm
It's quite interesting that several of the translations imply that Jesus was in fact slain before the foundation of the world. And at least one makes it implicit.

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