Why did mythicism survive more among the dualist Gnostics

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
Giuseppe
Posts: 3702
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Vicenza (Italy)

Why did mythicism survive more among the dualist Gnostics

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:14 pm

In another thread, I have argued that the best evidence of a Mythicist reaction among the same Christians against the historicist belief is to be found in the Ophites cursing Jesus as a Mythicist group marker, since they rejected not only the mere humanity of Jesus (''as a wise man'') - against the separationist Christians à la Cerinthus - but also the same name of 'Jesus' for the (heartly or celestial) apparition of Christ to men.

The name 'Jesus', even if it appears in the earliest epistles, was considered by these Christians as too much compromised with the new historicist view of the Christ. It had to be rejected in toto if the original pure mythicism had to be preserved in connection with the particular Gnostic dualism of the Gentile Christians. Whereas the Jewish Christians had no need of doing so, since the idea of a ''historical'' Jesus, once introduced, was too much useful for them insofar he was coming from Judea and Jerusalem (so giving to the pro-Torah party the status of best priority and ''link'' with the Origins of the Cult).

The following paint shows that there is was at work a definite trend towards the denial of the historical Jesus, in a proportional measure with the rejection of the god of the Jews:

Image

This would explain why the more explicit Christian denial of the historicity of Jesus would appear, centuries after, among the Cathars.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 9222
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Why did mythicism survive more among the dualist Gnostics

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:33 am

How can you use the word "survived" in the title with respect to "mythicism" (a term invented in the last century) in relation to "the Ophites" an alleged sect for which we have marginal information from the late second century) and claim objectivity? You are such a nitwit. Your post are best characterized as eunuch masturbation. We have no idea is "mythicism" ever existed, what or if the Ophites were an actual sect. So adding 0 + 0 is unlikely to lead to anything productive.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Giuseppe
Posts: 3702
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Vicenza (Italy)

Re: Why did mythicism survive more among the dualist Gnostics

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:43 am

Since I am able to recognize that ''cursing Jesus'' is 100% expected as a mythicist Group marker, for a sect that considered the introduction of a ''wise man'' named Jesus as 'degrading heresy'.

Whereas under the historicist paradigm it is not expected at all that a Christian sect (and I underline ''Christian'') could go so far to curse Jesus just as a ''wise man''.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
Posts: 3702
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Vicenza (Italy)

Re: Why did mythicism survive more among the dualist Gnostics

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:45 am

We have no idea if "mythicism" ever existed, what or if the Ophites were an actual sect.
evidently you are ignoring the same existence of this academic book.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

lsayre
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Why did mythicism survive more among the dualist Gnostics

Post by lsayre » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:11 am

Is it a requisite that mythicists curse Jesus?

Giuseppe
Posts: 3702
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Vicenza (Italy)

Re: Why did mythicism survive more among the dualist Gnostics

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:14 am

Surely not, unless these mythicists:
1) want to continue to be such,
2) recognize that the name "Jesus" is too much compromised with the claims of authority coming "from Jerusalem".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
Posts: 3702
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Vicenza (Italy)

Re: Why did mythicism survive more among the dualist Gnostics

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:17 am

But it is not only a mere name that is rejected. It is a "wise man" who is rejected. And that "wise man" could only be the ancient equivalent of the term "historical Jesus".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 9222
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Why did mythicism survive more among the dualist Gnostics

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:18 am

Your approach as always is idiotic. The fact that "a book" says this or that hardly warrants speaking in terms of the "survival" of a modern pop culture phenomenon (mythicism) within the ranks of a questionable ancient association (Ophites). But by all means continuing your Rumpelstiltskin approach to scholarship - i.e. saying something over and over again to make it true
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Giuseppe
Posts: 3702
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Vicenza (Italy)

Re: Why did mythicism survive more among the dualist Gnostics

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:23 am

I can't prove if the Ophites (or who for them) placed the crucifixion of the Christ in heaven or on heart, but what I can be sure of is that they cursed the "wise man" Jesus as a form of dogmatic defense against historicist views, the same ones so well expressed in this quote:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man.
And in this quote:
He represented Jesus as having not been born of a virgin, but as being the son of Joseph and Mary according to the ordinary course of human generation, while he nevertheless was more righteous, prudent, and wise than other men. Moreover, after his baptism, Christ descended upon him in the form of a dove from the Supreme Ruler,
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
arnoldo
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Latin America

Re: Why did mythicism survive more among the dualist Gnostics

Post by arnoldo » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:30 am

Jerome Murphy O'Conner has the following insight regarding "cursing" Jesus reflecting the influence of Philo's philosophy on the Corinthians

Post Reply