..."As against a robber"...

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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..."As against a robber"...

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:25 am

Mark 14
48 And Jesus said to them, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me??49 Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.” 50 Then everyone deserted him and fled.

According to the Gnostics, the old prophets were robbers.

According to the proto-catholics, the marcionite Christ was a robber and Barabbas was his grotesque alter ego.

So Jesus is saying: are you considering me as the marcionite Christ (a Christ hated by all the Jews as basically foreign to them)? When really I was with you from the OT times?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: ..."As against a robber"...

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:34 am

This gives us a clue about the Earliest Passion Narrative: the "Jews" crucified Jesus since he was not their Christ.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Joseph D. L.
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Re: ..."As against a robber"...

Post by Joseph D. L. » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:23 pm

It's always one step forward and two steps back with you.

No Gospel and no witness testifies that Jews crucified Christ. It was always the Romans, or the archons posing as Romans.

Giuseppe
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Re: ..."As against a robber"...

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:41 pm

But in the Talmud we have only Jews hanging Jesus.

You would call it mere Talmudic late propaganda, but also the Pilate story was mere propaganda.

Pilate could be introduced in a previous story (where only the Jews crucify the Christ) to explain the bifurcation of Jesus in two Jesuses: one whom the gentile Pilate would have had to crucify (the robber Barabbas) - if only there was justice in this world (read: if there were no marcionites in this world) - and one whom the gentile Pilate really crucified: the Jewish Messiah.

So Pilate is there only because a Barabbas had to be there
.

But in a marcionite Gospel there was only one Jesus : the Son of the Father.

Ergo no need of another Jesus. No need of Pilate and of the his stupid bifurcation of Jesuses.

By default, without a Pilate, only the "Jews" killed Jesus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

John2
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Re: ..."As against a robber"...

Post by John2 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:19 pm

Giuseppe cited Mk. 14:48-50:
48 And Jesus said to them, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me??49 Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.” 50 Then everyone deserted him and fled.
A link I gave you on another thread also says:
A more detailed analysis of first-century Palestine yields the preliminary observation that these bandits were of two types: the highwaymen who robbed only for personal gain, and the guerrilla warriors who directed their aggression against Roman authorities and/or the Jewish authorities and persons who collaborated with them.

http://bibleresources.americanbible.org ... of-bandits
I see Jesus as referring to this second type of robber here.
May the four winds blow you home again.

Giuseppe
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Re: ..."As against a robber"...

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:31 pm

John2 wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:19 pm
Giuseppe cited Mk. 14:48-50:
48 And Jesus said to them, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me??49 Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.” 50 Then everyone deserted him and fled.
A link I gave you on another thread also says:
A more detailed analysis of first-century Palestine yields the preliminary observation that these bandits were of two types: the highwaymen who robbed only for personal gain, and the guerrilla warriors who directed their aggression against Roman authorities and/or the Jewish authorities and persons who collaborated with them.

http://bibleresources.americanbible.org ... of-bandits
I see Jesus as referring to this second type of robber here.
I am sorry for the your Zealot interpretation of the passage, but it is too much evident that the contrary of being arrested "as a robber" is being arrested during the day, i.e. knowing fully the identity of who is arrested. "Mark" is securing the readers that even if the enemies of Jesus didn't know him during his arrest, he was at any rate not the Robber par excellence: the marcionite Christ.

I realize only now the stupidity of who said in this forum (I don't remember who) that in Mark there is never an explicit confirmation of the fulfillment of prophecies. Please read this thread to persuade you of the contrary.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: ..."As against a robber"...

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:35 pm

Tertullian realized perfectly who is the robber:

Then the things which the Father delivered to the Son are good, and the Creator is therefore good, since all His things are good; whereas he is no longer good who has invaded another's good (domains) to deliver it to his son, thus teaching robbery of another's goods

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: ..."As against a robber"...

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:57 am

In the Gospel of Peter it is de facto during the night that Jesus is crucified, "just as a robber", we should conclude, if the innocent is crucified during the day while Jesus is crucified during the night:
But is was midday, and darkness held fast all Judea; and they were distressed and anxious lest the sun had set, since he was still living. [For] it is written for them: Let not the sun set on one put to death. [16] And someone of them said: 'Give him to drink gall with vinegary wine.' And having made a mixture, they gave to drink. [17] And they fulfilled all things and completed the sins on their own head. [18] But many went around with lamps, thinking that it was night, and they fell. [19] And the Lord screamed out, saying: 'My power, O power, you have forsaken me.' And having said this, he was taken up.
The irony behind a Jesus crucified during the night is that he is really a robber came to steal (in all secrecy) the kingdom of the Demiurge.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: ..."As against a robber"...

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:37 am

The author of these words couldn't be a Jew:
For it is written for them: Let not the sun set on one put to death
Deut. 21:23 is not precisely the same thing (even if it is meant).

you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance

There is something of similar in Deut. 24:15
ולא תבוא עליו השמש (we-lo tavò 'allav ha-shemesh=)

Pay them their wages each day before sunset, because they are poor and are counting on it.

The sense may be the following: If they didn't pay Jesus his "wage" before sunset, then they will become indebted to him. So Jesus could "buy" (by his death) who was of the Demiurge.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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MrMacSon
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Re: ..."As against a robber"...

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:50 pm

FWIW; Johanan be Zakkai is said to have been moved by the religious indifference of the inhabitants of 'Arab in Galilee to exclaim:
  • "O Galilee, Galilee, thou hatest the Torah; hence wilt thou fall into the hands of robbers!"
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... n-b-zakkai
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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