Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

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Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:02 am

1. Clement of Alexandria in the sixth book of the Outlines mentioned the Dialogue of Jason and Papiscus and believed that Luke the Evangelist was its author
2. Eusebius mentions the Dialogue of Jason and Papiscus made reference to Hadrian's decree forbidding the Jews further access to Jerusalem
THEREFORE Clement must have thought 'Luke' wrote after 138 CE
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Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:26 am

I don't think so after more reading. I think the work was set in the first century.
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Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Peter Kirby » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:03 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:26 am
I don't think so after more reading. I think the work was set in the first century.
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Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:26 am

Well here's the dilemma.

1. with the discovery of the Bovon fragment in 2012 it is clear that Sophronius identified Luke as the author of the text properly called 'the Dialogue of Jason and Papiscus' ( Ἰάσωνος καὶ Παπίσκου Διάλογον)
2. Maximus the Confessor notes that Clement of Alexandria, in the sixth book of his Hypotyposes ascribes the Dialogue to Luke but for some reason disagreed and said the author was Ariston of Pella.
3. Maximus's testimony is now ignored - Fergus Millar, Emil Schürer, Geza Vermes, The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ 1973 p38 "Since the Dialogue was known to Celsus, Origen, Jerome and the Latin translator as being anonymous (for none of them names the author), it is very questionable whether the testimony of Maximus Confessor describing Ariston as the author deserves any credit"
4. It was only based on Maximus's identification of Ariston as the author that the mention of the Bar Kochba revolt ascribed by Eusebius to Ariston was assumed to have come from the Dialogue.

Hence there is no internal evidence the Dialogue was written in the second century.

5. Now with that said there may be a relationship with Ariston because of the confluence of mention a common passage referenced by Jerome as being in the Dialogue - "I Remember in the Dispute between Jason and Papiscus, which is composed in Greek, to have found it written: `The execration of God is he that is hanged.'" (Commentary on Galatians 3:13) - and chapter 13 of Against the Jews ascribed to Tertullian but clearly from an original Greek source which also led to 'his' production of Against Marcion III.
6. This same section (= chapter 13 of Against the Jews) has uncanny verbal similarities with the Ariston of Pella fragment referenced in Eusebius above (4.6.3) "the whole nation from that time was strictly forbidden to set foot on the region about Jerusalem, by the formal decree and enactment of Adrian, who commanded that they should not even from a distance look on their native soil!" So writes Aristo of Pella."
7. Of course the odd thing is that chapter 13 of Against the Jews has the same language but is relating details of the First Jewish War in 70 CE

What we are dealing with then is widespread rewriting or re-purposing of literary testimonies. Interestingly this occurs down to the third century in relation to material associated with Jason and Papiscus:

8. Jerome says "In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. The majority believe, as it is affirmed also in the Dispute between Jason and Papiscus, and as Tertullian in his book Against Praxeas contends,[/b] and as Hilarius too, in his exposition of one of the Psalms, declares, that in the Hebrew it is: `In the Son, God made the heaven and the earth.' But that this is false, the nature of the case itself proves." (Questions in Genesis)
9. Yet in our surviving editions of Against Praxeas the passage has been removed.

To this end it would seem that we have multiple versions of the same text circulating in antiquity:

a) one version which was ascribed to Luke another which was ascribed to Ariston of Pella
b) over version of the text which was called the Dialogue of Jason and Papiscus another which was called the Controversy Between Jason and Papiscus
c) one version possibly which referenced the Hadrian war against the Jews and one which did not
d) various later compositions which changed the names of the participants (for instance Jason for Mnason) and also the name of the Jew
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Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:46 am

Of course here is an attempt to make sense of the mess.

i) 'Luke' doesn't make an appearance in the Christian world until Irenaeus actively promoted his involvement in the early Church in the late second century/early third century
ii) Ariston of Pella seems to have been known to Christians in the early second century (note - Papias cites him as a source)
iii) it would seem more likely that the text was created in the second century as it follows a pattern of 'Jewish-Christian dialogues' that appeared then (cf Justin and Trypho)
iv) the reference to Hadrian in Ariston's text might have been an editorial statement
v) the association with Luke might have been part of a pattern in the late second century to 'rebaptize' mid second century texts (i.e. the Acts of the Apostles, various gospels) as apostolic documents. Note the Marcionites denied that any gospel was written by disciples of Jesus. The sudden discovery of Catholic gospels written by apostles and apostolics seems to have emerged very late and as a reaction against Marcionism. Matthew does not appear to have been a disciple originally, Luke and Mark are explicitly stated to have been 'apostolics' the gospel of John was carefully avoided being described as a gospel written by John even in early Catholic testimony.

It would seem to suggest that a text originally associated with Ariston of Pella was renamed or 're-associated' with Luke, likely by Irenaeus or someone in his orbit. It is interesting that Clement received a 'Luke-edition' of the Dialogue implying at least that this edition reached Alexandria by the end of the second century. Doesn't Clement also ascribe Hebrews to Luke or at least Luke's effort to translate the original text? There seems to have been a body of 'Lukan literature' circulating in Alexandria at a relatively early date. The idea that Luke was understood to have been the author of (1) the gospel in his name (2) Acts (3) Hebrews (4) the Dialogue and (5) perhaps a number of other texts cf. the Pastorals implies a very significant role for Luke. Almost a proto-Irenaeus in the first century. Of course this a myth but an important one nonetheless. It should change our understanding of Luke 1:1 - 4.
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Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:16 pm

Eusebius on another passage from the Hypotyposes:
And he [Clement] says that the Epistle to the Hebrews is Paul's, and was written to the Hebrews in the Hebrew language; but that Luke, having carefully translated it, gave it to the Greeks, and hence the same colouring in the expression is discoverable in this Epistle and the Acts; and that the name "Paul an Apostle" was very properly not pre-fixed, for, he says, that writing to the Hebrews, who were prejudiced against him and suspected, he with great wisdom did not repel them in the beginning by putting down his name. [6.14]
A similar understanding is found in Clement's Adumbr. in 1 Petr.:
'Luke also is recognized to have described with his pen the Acts of the Apostles and to have translated Paul's letter to the Hebrews' (cited in Cadbury, 1922a: 221).
Eusebius also notes Origen knew of this tradition:
Yet the account that has reached us, some saying that Clement, bishop of Rome, wrote the Epistle, and others, that it was Luke, the one who wrote the Gospel and the Acts' (H.E. 6.25.11–14).
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Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:20 pm

Aristion as author of the longer ending of Mark in the Armenian tradition

https://books.google.com/books?id=EqYQA ... es&f=false
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Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:43 pm

Apparently eritzu means Presbyter in Armenian cf Isiqiosi Eritzu = Hesychius the Elder,
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Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:59 pm

And there is a clue who this Ariston might have been (or at least others have thought so). Ariston of Gerasa "was a cultured rhetorician" says Stephanus Gerasa (less than twenty miles from Pella). I wonder what Andrew would say as I noticed he penned a paper in this field -

A. H. Criddle, 'The Chronology of Nicomachus of Gerasa', Classical Quarterly 42 (1998): 324–6;
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Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Joseph D. L. » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:35 pm

That Aristo(n) is the same figure as Luke is my own opinion. It best explains why there is a stronger tradition for Luke penning the Dialogue of Jason and Papiscus, and a weaker tradition for Aristo of Pella being its author; and how Marcion could have a disciple named Lucan, and Aristo being the secretary for Marcus of Jerusalem. And if Justin's own Dialogue is largely made up of portions of Jason and Papiscus, it makes its dedication to a one Marcus Pompeius all the moor conspicuous. Aristo of Pella would be Apelles.

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