Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Secret Alias »

Yes on some level that is what we know happened - (a) someone in the second century and probably mid second century wrote this dialogue and then (b) it was taken to be a first century work and (c) associated with Luke. Of course (b) and (c) could have happened simultaneously. It is interesting though to see that it was a written dialogue which later influenced writers like Irenaeus (who takes over his 'In the Son, God created ...' business. I see this kind of dialogue necessarily influenced by Platonic thought. We can compare it with the dialogue of Adaamantius also of uncertain provenance. Since (a) must be the starting point Ariston is the most likely author. I wonder what the possibly implications are of Arist(i)on's involvement with Papias has on the situation.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Secret Alias »

I've also always thought that 'Theophilos' in Acts/Luke is Theophilus of Antioch.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Secret Alias »

Another curiosity that has to be explained - why so many heretics or 'bad guys' from the Pauline letters end up having the same name as 'heretics' or 'bad guys' from the second century.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Secret Alias »

And for those who suspect that 'Ariston' had something to do with Irenaeus there is a connection - with Smyrna, Polycarp's locale. We read in the Apostolic Constitutions 7:18:
Now concerning those bishops which have been ordained in our lifetime, we let you know that they are these:—James the bishop of Jerusalem, the brother of our Lord; upon whose death the second was Simeon the son of Cleopas; after whom the third was Judas the son of James. Of Cæsarea of Palestine, the first was Zacchæus, who was once a publican; after whom was Cornelius, and the third Theophilus. Of Antioch, Euodius, ordained by me Peter; and Ignatius by Paul. Of Alexandria, Annianus was the first, ordained by Mark the evangelist; the second Avilius by Luke, who was also an evangelist. Of the church of Rome, Linus the son of Claudia was the first, ordained by Paul; and Clemens, after Linus’ death, the second, ordained by me Peter. Of Ephesus, Timotheus, ordained by Paul; and John, by me John. Of Smyrna, Aristo the first; after whom Stratæas the son of Lois; and the third Aristo. Of Pergamus, Gaius. Of Philadelphia, Demetrius, by me. Of Cenchrea, Lucius, by Paul. Of Crete, Titus. Of Athens, Dionysius. Of Tripoli in Phœnicia, Marathones. Of Laodicea in Phrygia, Archippus.3539 Of Colossæ, Philemon.3540 Of Borea in Macedonia, Onesimus, once the servant of Philemon.3541 Of the churches of Galatia, Crescens.3542 Of the parishes of Asia, Aquila and Nicetas. Of the church of Æginæ, Crispus. These are the bishops who are entrusted by us with the parishes in the Lord; whose doctrine keep ye always in mind, and observe our words. And may the Lord be with you now, and to endless ages, as Himself said to us when He was about to be taken up to His own God and Father. For says He, “Lo, I am with you all the days, until the end of the world. Amen
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8015
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Peter Kirby »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:45 am Another curiosity that has to be explained - why so many heretics or 'bad guys' from the Pauline letters end up having the same name as 'heretics' or 'bad guys' from the second century.
Could we make a list of the corresponding names? I'm curious.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Stuart
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:24 am
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Stuart »

These names show up in the secondary "so and so send greetings/salutations" which are almost certainly not part of the original letters. Apelles (Romans 16:10) for one shows up.

It should be noted that the word ἀσπάζομαι seems not to have been found in the Marcionite versions of the Pauline letters. And further this word is seen as a negative (see Luke 11:43, 20:46 and parallels Mark 12:38/Matthew 23:7), something to be avoided (e.g., Luke 10:4) as it shows partiality. I suspect it has to do with the opposition to rank, and giving people rank runs afoul of the notion that God plays no favorites (Galatians 2:6 πρόσωπον θεὸς ἀνθρώπου οὐ λαμβάνει). Hebrews 13:24 relates this to rank, "salute your leaders"; meaning give them deference, the same deference the Pharisees (representing the clergy of the opposing sects of the Gospel writer) are accused of seeking and having publicly given them for wearing the rob of office (like a priest or minister today). This points to a much different outlook from the early Gospel writers and their more egalitarian and IMO monkish background.

Anyway, these lists of names saluting in the Pauline letters are secondary and from a later era. The very salutations conflict head on with the earlier teachings of Paul and the Gospels. This make me think the heretic lists are also much later and not necessarily based on anything more than legend, as the names saluting in Paul are very late and secondary, making reference to them even later, especially as the theological conflict with saluting has been completely lost on the church fathers (a process that take at least couple generations if not even more time).
Last edited by Stuart on Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Stuart wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:51 am These names show up in the secondary "so and so send greetings/salutations" which are almost certainly not part of the original letters. Apelles (Romans 16:10) for one shows up.
Phlegon is also a name that is dropped in the list in chapter sixteen. The same Phlegon, I presume, who was the freedman of Hadrian, was his courier, and who authored a history supposedly detailing Christ's death or the at least the darkness accompanying it.

Now this is odd...

"But the question is, whether any one who was really dead ever rose with a veritable body. Or do you imagine the statements of others not only to be myths, but to have the appearance of such, while you have discovered a becoming and credible termination to your drama in the voice from the cross, when he breathed his last, and in the earthquake and the darkness? That while alive he was of no assistance to himself, but that when dead he rose again, and showed the marks of his punishment, and how his hands were pierced with nails... "

...

He imagines also that both the earthquake and the darkness were an invention; but regarding these, we have in the preceding pages, made our defense, according to our ability, adducing the testimony of Phlegon, who relates that these events took place at the time when our Saviour suffered. And he goes on to say, that Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.

Origen, Contra Celsus, bk ii, ch LVIII-LIX

Based on this reading, it would seem that Celsus was aware of the histories of Phlegon, and even reiterated the same point as Phlegon verbatim.

So the question is, who was Phlegon?

I suspect that Phlegon is the Hegesippus figure; the teacher of Irenaeus and Florinus, Polycarp; who had connections to the Royal Hall of Rome; but not to be confused with the "martyr" Peregrinus, who had no connections to the Royal Hall, was abusive toward Antoninus, and exiled from Rome.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by MrMacSon »

More on Phlegon -

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Phlegon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegon_of_Tralles

Origen, Against Celsus (Contra Celsum), Bk II, chap. XIV [14]

Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events (although falling into confusion about some things which refer to Peter, as if they referred to Jesus), but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.


and, Origen, Against Celsus, Bk II, chap XXXIII [33] -

“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place . . . ” https://www.neverthirsty.org/about-chri ... s/phlegon/

Also,
“Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus and no other (eclipse); it is clear that he did not know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous times . . . and this is shown by the historical account of Tiberius Caesar.” – Phiopon, De. opif. mund. II21

“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Cæsar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth – manifestly that one of which we speak. But what has an eclipse in common with an earthquake, the rending rocks, and the resurrection of the dead, and so great a perturbation throughout the universe? . . . And calculation makes out that the period of 70 weeks, as noted in Daniel, is completed at this time.” – Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1

“In the fourth year, however, of Olympiad 202, an eclipse of the sun happened, greater and more excellent than any that had happened before it; at the sixth hour, day turned into dark night, so that the stars were seen in the sky, and an earthquake in Bithynia toppled many buildings of the city of Nicaea.” – Phlegon’s 13th book quoted in Jerome’s translation of Eusebius’ Chronicle, 202 Olympiad.

https://www.neverthirsty.org/about-chri ... s/phlegon/
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by Secret Alias »

Could we make a list of the corresponding names? I'm curious.
1. Arist(i)on the author of the second century 'Jason and Papiscus' and known to Papias and the church of Smyrna and Aristo of Pella disciple of the apostles
2. Hermogenes the second century heretic who is identified as being present in Antioch and mentioned in Theophilus's treatise and who moved to Carthage when Tertullian copied out this original treatise and having "failed in cleaving to the rule of faith as much as the apostle's own Hermogenes" i.e. 2 Timothy 1:15.
3. the Elder John who was known to second century personalities Papias, and John the apostle
4. Onesimus the bishop of Antioch in the Ignatian letters "Seeing, then, that we have become acquainted with your multitude(4) in the name of God, by Onesimus, who is your bishop, in love which is unutterable, whom I pray that ye love in Jesus Christ our Lord, and that all of you imitate his example for blessed is He who has given you such a bishop, even as ye deserve [to have]." and Onesimus the slave of Paul in the Pastorals
5. Those who view the account in Revelation 2 as not literal treat the word "Nicolaitan" not as based upon an individual's name, but as a compound descriptive word. Nico- means "victory" in Greek, and laos means "people" or, more specifically, "the laity". Hence they take the word to mean "lay conquerors" or "conquerors of the lay people" and the heretical sect associated with a heretic named Nicolaus.

more to follow
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
andrewcriddle
Posts: 2817
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Clement Dated Luke to the Middle of the Second Century

Post by andrewcriddle »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:08 am
4. Onesimus the bishop of Antioch in the Ignatian letters "Seeing, then, that we have become acquainted with your multitude(4) in the name of God, by Onesimus, who is your bishop, in love which is unutterable, whom I pray that ye love in Jesus Christ our Lord, and that all of you imitate his example for blessed is He who has given you such a bishop, even as ye deserve [to have]." and Onesimus the slave of Paul in the Pastorals
It has been seriously suggested that Onesimus the runaway slave in Paul's letter to Philemon (not the Pastorals) and Onesimus the bishop in Ignatius are the same person fifty years apart.

Andrew Criddle
Post Reply