You Look Markvelous. It's Better To Look Perfect Than To be Perfect. An Inventory Of "Mark's" Imperfect Jesus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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JoeWallack
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You Look Markvelous. It's Better To Look Perfect Than To be Perfect. An Inventory Of "Mark's" Imperfect Jesus

Post by JoeWallack » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:07 am

I'm Pretty Fuckin Far From Okay

JW:
Most Christian Believers think that according to the Christian Bible Jesus was perfect. It's my unfortunate responsibility to inform them though that per the likely original Gospel narrative, GMark, Jesus was not perfect. These Christians are lost to us. I'm more concerned with Skeptics who likewise think that Jesus was perfect according to The Christian Bible as these Skeptics can still be saved.

The purpose of this unholy Thread will be to inventory evidence that per GMark Jesus was not perfect.


Joseph

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Charles Wilson
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Re: You Look Markvelous. It's Better To Look Perfect Than To be Perfect. An Inventory Of "Mark's" Imperfect Jesus

Post by Charles Wilson » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:21 am

Mark 4: 35 - 38 (RSV):

[35] On that day, when evening had come, he said to them, "Let us go across to the other side."
[36] And leaving the crowd, they took him with them in the boat, just as he was. And other boats were with him.
[37] And a great storm of wind arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that the boat was already filling.
[38] But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion; and they woke him and said to him, "Teacher, do you not care if we perish?"

Compare with Matthew, who has to rewrite the scene so that it "all comes to the Glory of Jesus!":

Matthew 8: 23 - 25 (RSV):

[23] And when he got into the boat, his disciples followed him.
[24] And behold, there arose a great storm on the sea, so that the boat was being swamped by the waves; but he was asleep.
[25] And they went and woke him, saying, "Save, Lord; we are perishing."

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Lukee! Ya Got Sum Splainin Ta Do

Post by JoeWallack » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:03 am

JW:
1
4 John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
6 And John was clothed with camel`s hair, and [had] a leathern girdle about his loins, and did eat locusts and wild honey.
7 And he preached, saying, There cometh after me he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I baptized you in water; But he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit.
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan.
JW:
Per GMark JtB's (John the Baptist) mission (so to speak) is to perform a baptism ceremony where the baptisee confesses their sins and repents and has their sins removed. This narrative states that Jesus was than baptized by JtB. There is no explicit that Jesus confessed his sins but there is an implication. That GMark did not want to mention the earlier, sinfuller Jesus is consistent with the only known significant Christian author before GMark, Paul. As paullways, note the irony this creates with the rest of GMark. "Mark's" (author) Jesus starts his Mission by having his sins taken away and his Mission will be to take away everyone else's sins. The takeaway is more than deserving of my related Markan Irony Thread. Regarding the lack of explicit here, again, Greek Tragedy normally provides the motivation, the explicit lack of may be a literary Marker by the author that the emphasis is on the irony.

Since GMark is likely the original Gospel narrative a reader would likely think that it did indicate that Jesus was sinful before baptism if they were not aware of any other Gospels and trying to defend against this is based on subsequent Gospels and therefore anachronistic. We can actually see from the subsequent Gospels that the reactions are not explanations/interpretations but apologies:

Gospel Verse Apology
Matthew 3
1 And in those days cometh John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, saying,
2 Repent ye;
for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of through Isaiah the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight.
4 Now John himself had his raiment of camel`s hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his food was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan;
6 and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and [in] fire:
12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John would have hindered him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 But Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness.
Then he suffereth him.
In general, note the big expansion (apology). Specifically, the problem is toned down as JtB apparently stopped "preaching a baptism of repentance." Getting all the way to the last verse though there is still an implication that Jesus confessed his sins so the last verse gives a different reason for Jesus' baptism. By the way, when an author largely unlatches a problem with the last verse/word this is evidence that at that time only the offending Gospel stood before him.
Luke 3
3 And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins;
4 as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, And every mountain and hill shall be brought low; And the crooked shall become straight, And the rough ways smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7 He said therefore to the multitudes that went out to be baptized of him, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And even now the axe also lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
10 And the multitudes asked him, saying, What then must we do?
11 And he answered and said unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath food, let him do likewise.
12 And there came also publicans to be baptized, and they said unto him, Teacher, what must we do?
13 And he said unto them, Extort no more than that which is appointed you.
14 And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse [any one] wrongfully; and be content with your wages.
15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men reasoned in their hearts concerning John, whether haply he were the Christ;
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but there cometh he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and [in] fire:
17 whose fan is in his hand, thoroughly to cleanse his threshing-floor, and to gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
18 With many other exhortations therefore preached he good tidings unto the people;
19 but Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother`s wife, and for all the evil things which Herod had done,
20 added this also to them all, that he shut up John in prison.
21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Since GMark is the source "Luke's" JtB is likewise preaching a baptism of repentance. "Luke" greatly expands the problem narrative like "Matthew" but here her solution is not to explicitly say that John baptized Jesus.
John 1
19 And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent unto him from Jerusalem priests and Levites to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; and he confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered, No.
22 They said therefore unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said Isaiah the prophet.
24 And they had been sent from the Pharisees.
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why then baptizest thou, if thou art not the Christ, neither Elijah, neither the prophet?
26 John answered them, saying, I baptize in water: in the midst of you standeth one whom ye know not,
27 [even] he that cometh after me, the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to unloose.
28 These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29 On the morrow he seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man who is become before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not; but that he should be made manifest to Israel, for this cause came I baptizing in water.
32 And John bare witness, saying, I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven; and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize in water, he said unto me, Upon whomsoever thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and abiding upon him, the same is he that baptizeth in the Holy Spirit.
34 And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.
"John" has changed the purpose of JtB's baptism from confessing/repenting sin to identifying Jesus. "John" like "Luke" does not explicitly say that JtB baptized Jesus but here it doesn't matter because the purpose of the baptism is not related to sin anyway. As usual, this looks like a reaction to GMark.


Joseph

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Charles Wilson
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Re: You Look Markvelous. It's Better To Look Perfect Than To be Perfect. An Inventory Of "Mark's" Imperfect Jesus

Post by Charles Wilson » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:43 am

Mark 14: 12 (RSV):

[12] And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the passover?"

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Re: You Look Markvelous. It's Better To Look Perfect Than To be Perfect. An Inventory Of "Mark's" Imperfect Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:09 am

"Mark's" (author) Jesus starts his Mission by having his sins taken away and his Mission will be to take away everyone else's sins.
Where is the evidence in Mark that ''his Mission will be to take away everyone else's sins'' ? I note that

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

(Mark 10:45)

...has not the value of a redemptive sacrifice to take away the sins of the ''many'', but only to ransom many, even if still sinners. Their sins are not removed: the many + their sins simply are bought just as they are (with their sins).
We can actually see from the subsequent Gospels that the reactions are not explanations/interpretations but apologies
I disagree. Matthew's account is an explanation being sufficient per se and not an apology against a previous source.
In general, note the big expansion (apology). Specifically, the problem is toned down as JtB apparently stopped "preaching a baptism of repentance." Getting all the way to the last verse though there is still an implication that Jesus confessed his sins so the last verse gives a different reason for Jesus' baptism. By the way, when an author largely unlatches a problem with the last verse/word this is evidence that at that time only the offending Gospel stood before him.
The emphasis of Matthew is on the fact that, even if the John's baptism implies a previous sin by the baptized person, even so who is without sin (Jesus), accepts the baptism (just the baptism that implies a previous sin). And this deliberate paradox has to be accepted only because of ''fulfillment of justice''. So the apology is not against the baptism of Jesus, but against these Christians who doesn't require a baptism for themselves.

The sense is: if even the Perfect Jesus was baptized, who are you to reject the baptism for the your sins?

The implicit answer: you are a Christian who rejects the baptism and any Jewish practice.

Evidently these Christians didn't require the baptism for themselves since they recognized the baptism as supporting Torah.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: You Look Markvelous. It's Better To Look Perfect Than To be Perfect. An Inventory Of "Mark's" Imperfect Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:19 am

It would be interesting to know which is the primary evidence for this claim:
Many of the Gnostics rejected the physical sacraments such as baptism and communion because they considered them useless.
http://www.earlychristiancommentary.com ... -gnostics/
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: You Look Markvelous. It's Better To Look Perfect Than To be Perfect. An Inventory Of "Mark's" Imperfect Jesus

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:32 am


Yet other Sethian texts seem to reject baptism: once Zostrianos finishes his ascent to heaven, he comes back to earth and preaches, “do not baptize yourselves with death”. In the Apocalypse of Adam, some kind of “defilement” of the “water of life” takes place. The Archontics, familiar with Sethian tradition, are reported by Epiphanius of Salamis to have rejected baptism. Ophite texts such as On the Origin of the World associate water baptism with Yaldabaoth. In each of these cases, it is not clear whether these passages indicate Sethian rejection of the validity of baptisms carried out by other Christians (including Gnostics) or a rejection of water baptism altogether in favor of the truly “living” water of the spirit, such as we find in Mani. Finally, there are no references to baptism at all in the Three Steles of Seth, Allogenes, and Marsanes.

(Dylan M. Burns, Apocalypse of the Alien God: Platonism and the Exile of Sethian Gnosticism, p. 133)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Into The Woods

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:21 am

Agony, Far More Painful Than Your Religion's

JW:
1
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens rent asunder, and the Spirit as a dove descending upon him:
As discussed here:

Cumulative Weight of Early Witness for Difficult Reading

Difficult Reading Witness Quality Witness Against Defense Against Significant Difference?
Mark 1:10
and the Spirit as a dove descending into him:
vs. upon
Vaticanus
Bezae
Sinaiticus
Regius
Washingtonianus
Alexandrinus
Rossanensis
Beratinus
064
Basilensis
The Greek word for "into" can also mean "unto" and the difference between "unto" and "upon" is insignificant. Yes. "Into" is direct evidence for Separationist theology and is the best fit for GMark's preceding implication that there was nothing previously reMarkable about Jesus. Strangely Ehrman states on p. 174 of tOCoS that the consensus is so strong that it is not even mentioned in the Critical Apparatus. But the reason it is not mentioned is because the Critical Apparatus considers it (into/unto/upon)
insignificant difference in meaning.

the evidence indicates that "into" is likely original. This is explicitly Separationist theology with the implication that before Jesus received God's Spirit he was unreMarkable (imperfect). This is supported by the lack of information regarding Jesus before this point in the Gospel, later references in the Gospel to how Jesus was thought of before he received the Spirit and subsequent GMark narrative regarding Jesus after he received the Spirit. As paullways this coordinates with Paul. Paul decides to say nothing about pre-sacrificing Jesus because pre-sacrificing Jesus was unRemarkable (imperfect). In order for a man to be like Jesus and repent and receive God's Spirit, the one Jesus, above all else, must first be a sinner, repent and receive God's Spirit.


Joseph

"In order to be an immaculate member of a flock of lambs, one must above all be a lamb oneself."

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