New Mythicist Evidence: Gospel of Philip 9

[Ben C. Smith]

The "Philip 9" lineation is from Internet sites only....

R. Wilson uses the same versification as Giuseppe in his 1962 translation and commentary of the gospel of Philip. His commentary follows the versification (which makes more sense than following the page and line numbers).

[arnoldo]

Well, I disagree but that's just me.

the point is that I don't know even where and about what you are disagreeing.

Are you really denying that the Gospel of Philip 9 talks of a Christ who died also and before the same creation of the world?

No, I disagreed with the following statement you made.

So a similar death could be only a mythical death, not a historical one (as the death under Pilate could be).

What correlation is there between Philip 9/Rev 13:8 and the "real allegorical meaning of golgotha"? Sometimes similarities don't have any significance. For example, your username probably doesn't have any relation to Giuseppe de' Levi (Italian, Verona 1522–1611/14 Verona) who created the following artifact: Crucifix on a Golgotha Base.

Crucifix on a Golgotha Base by Giuseppe de'Levi.jpg (49.04 KiB) Viewed 12397 times

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/206875

[Blood]

The "Philip 9" lineation is from Internet sites only....

R. Wilson uses the same versification as Giuseppe in his 1962 translation and commentary of the gospel of Philip. His commentary follows the versification (which makes more sense than following the page and line numbers).

No, he doesn't. Wilson follows Pahor Labib's plate numbering in Coptic Gnostic Papyri in the Coptic Museum at Old Cairo, Vol. 1 (1956). This system was abandoned when the ARE-UNESCO Facsmilie Editions were published by Brill in the 1970s.

Wilson's lineation for the relevant verses are 101:6-9 (page 29 of his book), meaning plate 101 of Labib rather than page 53 of Codex II. The line numbers are the same as the UNESCO edition.

Wilson's translation is as follows:

"Not only when he appeared did he lay down the soul (ψυχή) when he wished, but from the day the world came into being he laid down the soul (ψυχή)."

Wilson expresses some ambiguity about whether to translate the Greek loan word ψυχή as "soul" or "life," the latter being Isenberg's preference.

Wilson's commentary makes no reference to Revelation.

[Ben C. Smith]

The "Philip 9" lineation is from Internet sites only....

R. Wilson uses the same versification as Giuseppe in his 1962 translation and commentary of the gospel of Philip. His commentary follows the versification (which makes more sense than following the page and line numbers).

No, he doesn't.

Dude, I have the text open in front of me. You must have it, too, since you got the page numbers and lineation right. But the sections/verses are clearly marked:

Dude.png (35.47 KiB) Viewed 12388 times

[Ben C. Smith]

And his commentary follows the same sections/verses:

Come On.png (53.26 KiB) Viewed 12388 times

The page and line numbers are still there, but the text is chunked up by section/verse for commentary.

[Giuseppe]

No, I disagreed with the following statement you made.

So a similar death could be only a mythical death, not a historical one (as the death under Pilate could be).

What correlation is there between Philip 9/Rev 13:8 and the "real allegorical meaning of golgotha"?

No, it is yet (!) a misunderstanding by you. The golgotha affair is an independent argument (and an argument that is revealed even fallacious after a more accurate exam). I have learned (thanks to Ben) that Golgotha doens't derive from ROSH so: end of the discussion about the Golgotha.

But the core of the my argument is that Philip 9 confirms that the more probable original reading of Rev 13:8 is that the Lamb was killed before the creation of the world, since Philip 9 is an independent evidence of the Christian belief in two distinct deaths of Jesus, one happened ''from the day the world came into'' and another happened under Pilate. So the author of Philip 9 is harmonizing clearly two different traditions about the Christ (respectively: a mythicist tradition and a historicist tradition).

And at least I - if not you, Arnoldo - can well imagine which tradition is probably more old.

Now, about ''the allegorical meaning of Golgotha'', it is already argued by someone that the ''skulls'' in question was the skulls of Adam, the first man. So there is at any rate a reference to the death of the heavenly Primal Man, necessary why the entire world has to be created. My argument confirms that this ''allegorical meaning of Golgotha'' is surely not a mere coincidence.

[arnoldo]

No, I disagreed with the following statement you made.

So a similar death could be only a mythical death, not a historical one (as the death under Pilate could be).

What correlation is there between Philip 9/Rev 13:8 and the "real allegorical meaning of golgotha"?

No, it is yet (!) a misunderstanding by you. The golgotha affair is an independent argument (and an argument that is revealed even fallacious after a more accurate exam). I have learned (thanks to Ben) that Golgotha doens't derive from ROSH so: end of the discussion about the Golgotha.

But the core of the my argument is that Philip 9 confirms that the more probable original reading of Rev 13:8 is that the Lamb was killed before the creation of the world, since Philip 9 is an independent evidence of the Christian belief in two distinct deaths of Jesus, one happened ''from the day the world came into'' and another happened under Pilate. So the author of Philip 9 is harmonizing clearly two different traditions about the Christ (respectively: a mythicist tradition and a historicist tradition).

And at least I - if not you, Arnoldo - can well imagine which tradition is probably more old.

Now, about ''the allegorical meaning of Golgotha'', it is already argued by someone that the ''skulls'' in question was the skulls of Adam, the first man. So there is at any rate a reference to the death of the heavenly Primal Man, necessary why the entire world has to be created. My argument confirms that this ''allegorical meaning of Golgotha'' is surely not a mere coincidence.

Plato's cave is clearly allegorical; golgotha doesn't appear to be allegorical (despite the etymology of the word) from my perspective sitting in a cave watching the shadows. Gnostics certainly may've interpreted Golgotha allegorically but this exegesis most likely came after the date Philip 9/Rev 13:8 was written IMHO.

[Giuseppe]

Gnostics certainly may've interpreted Golgotha allegorically but this exegesis most likely came after the date Philip 9/Rev 13:8 was written IMHO.

You can be free to think what you like about Golgotha as a literary element in a story and the possible reasons of the his presence, but it is a FACT that the more simple explanation of the presence of the same myth* behind both Philip 9/Rev 13:8 is that that same myth was there even before the date Philip 9/Rev 13:8 was written IMHO.

* because it is clearly a myth the idea that someone can be killed before the creation of the world.

[arnoldo]

Gnostics certainly may've interpreted Golgotha allegorically but this exegesis most likely came after the date Philip 9/Rev 13:8 was written IMHO.

You can be free to think what you like about Golgotha as a literary element in a story and the possible reasons of the his presence, but it is a FACT that the more simple explanation of the presence of the same myth* behind both Philip 9/Rev 13:8 is that that same myth was there even before the date Philip 9/Rev 13:8 was written IMHO.

* because it is clearly a myth the idea that someone can be killed before the creation of the world.

Are you aware that Julius Caesar may've been buried at the "place of the skull"?

Thanks to Bill Sulesky for pointing out that Julius Caesar was also buried at a “place of the skull,” according to Appian, Civil Wars bk 2: “The people returned to Caesar’s bier and bore it as a consecrated thing to the Capitol.” The word capitol (Capiolium) is derived from the latin word CAPUT which means dead man’s head or SKULL. Supposedly an Etruscan king, Olus (i.e. Aulus Vulcentanus) was killed and buried there, and that the Capitoline temple and hill in Rome received its name after his skull was later found: “the head of Olus”—caput Oli—Capitolium…place of the skull. So Julius Caesar’s murdered body was also carried to the Place of the Skull.
https://jamestabor.com/locating-golgotha/

What relation can this have with the "mythical" gospel accounts?

[Giuseppe]

Are you aware that Julius Caesar may've been buried at the "place of the skull"?
...
What relation can this have with the "mythical" gospel accounts?

please don't elude the core of my Mythicist argument (based on Philip 9/Apo 13:8) in this thread.