What is a "good Christian"?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
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Re: What is a "good Christian"?

Post by John2 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:09 am

You can like and cite John, Thomas and Paul all you like, but I don't think Jesus' suicide-by-cop philosophy was good for him or anyone else.
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theeternaliam
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Re: What is a "good Christian"?

Post by theeternaliam » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:44 am

John2 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:09 am
You can like and cite John, Thomas and Paul all you like, but I don't think Jesus' suicide-by-cop philosophy was good for him or anyone else.
Then you don't believe in the Resurrection? And justice in the afterlife and the World to Come?
He who loves his life will lose it. He who hates his life will find it.

In my personal experience, I didn't truly start living until I was willing to lose my life. When I gave up personal ambition and chose to carry my cross(which for me often took the form of a backpack), i found that, yes, there was and will be some hardships, but ultimately the blessings I received were worth it. So there are actually practical benefits to such a philosophy, but one shouldn't hold to it for simply that, but for love of truth and love for fellow creation.

Also, to ridicule Jesus's crucifixion as "suicide by cop" is not exactly true. He lived for a long time in hiding, but being led by the holy spirit knew when was the right time to let them do what they had to do

John2
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Re: What is a "good Christian"?

Post by John2 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:49 am

Then you don't believe in the Resurrection? And justice in the afterlife and the World to Come?
No.

Also, to ridicule Jesus's crucifixion as "suicide by cop" ...

I don't ridicule it. I think it was tragic and I used what I think is an apt expression for his philosophy, as per Mk. 8:31:

He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.
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theeternaliam
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Re: What is a "good Christian"?

Post by theeternaliam » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:45 pm

John2 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:49 am
Then you don't believe in the Resurrection? And justice in the afterlife and the World to Come?
No.

Also, to ridicule Jesus's crucifixion as "suicide by cop" ...

I don't ridicule it. I think it was tragic and I used what I think is an apt expression for his philosophy, as per Mk. 8:31:

He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.
So, you believe death is stronger than love?
That death and destruction is the most powerful force?
That darkness swallows up light?

I would definitely disagree. I believe as the psalmist that love is stronger than the force of deep waters, that love is even stronger than death. I believe what is hidden will be revealed and Truth will be victorious over falsehood and deception and that, maybe, if we just move out of the way or get low and humble ourselves that the Light Above can shine forth and things won't seem so gloomy

John2
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Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: What is a "good Christian"?

Post by John2 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:48 pm

So, you believe death is stronger than love?
That death and destruction is the most powerful force?
That darkness swallows up light?

I would definitely disagree. I believe as the psalmist that love is stronger than the force of deep waters, that love is even stronger than death. I believe what is hidden will be revealed and Truth will be victorious over falsehood and deception and that, maybe, if we just move out of the way or get low and humble ourselves that the Light Above can shine forth and things won't seem so gloomy

I'm not interested in those questions or your beliefs.
Show me something built to last.

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Secret Alias
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Re: What is a "good Christian"?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:09 pm

While no one has seemed interested in my theory, according to my understanding of the original nomen sacrum = ish the 'good Christian' is essentially 'like' the original heavenly man.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

John2
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Re: What is a "good Christian"?

Post by John2 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:27 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:09 pm
While no one has seemed interested in my theory, according to my understanding of the original nomen sacrum = ish the 'good Christian' is essentially 'like' the original heavenly man.

What was the original heavenly man like?
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John2
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Re: What is a "good Christian"?

Post by John2 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:38 pm

As I take a fresh look at the idea of the original heavenly man I found this blog post by Geoff Dennis, who is a "rabbi of Congregation Kol Ami and teaches Kabbalah and Rabbinic Literature in the Jewish Studies Program at the University of North Texas. He is the author of The Encyclopedia of Jewish Myth, Magic, and Mysticism, a 2007 National Book Award finalist, and recipient of an Honorable Mention for the 2007 Jewish Library Council Book Award. He has written numerous articles. The most recent, 'Purity and Transformation: The Mimetic Performance of Scriptural Texts in the Ritual of Taharah,' is in the Journal of Ritual Studies 26 (1), 2012":

A reader asked if the Jewish concept of Adam Kadmon that I mentioned in my earlier posting was the inspiration for the Christian concept of the “Mystical Body of Christ.” It’s an excellent question. In fact, we see what appears to be a statement by Paul (I Corinthians 15:45-50) about the Christ that has strong echoes of the Adam Kadmon tradition:

So, too, it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living being," the last Adam a life-giving spirit. But the spiritual was not first; rather the natural and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, earthly; the second man, from heaven. As was the earthly one, so also are the earthly, and as is the heavenly one, so also are the heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly one.

What is most striking to me is Paul’s insistence on the “order” of being. Paul pointedly states the “spiritual Adam” was not first. I take that to mean that Paul is making sure his readers understand that what he is teaching is markedly different from what they might assume. And that indicates to me that Paul is both aware of and modifying for his own theologic purpose an already well-known doctrine of a “spiritual Adam” that people believed preceded the earthly Adam. Since Jesus came millenia after human creation, Paul finds it necessary for the spiritual Adam be the culmination of humanity, rather then its origin. So in response to the question, all in all, I would think that this idea of being incorporated into the "body of Christ" is likely a specifically Christian re-retooling of the Jewish esoteric doctrine.

The concept that there is a primordial man that encompasses all humanity (indeed, the entire universe) probably has its first basis neither in Judaism or Christianity, but in the Platonic theory of “forms,” the belief that there exists an ideal form of all the varied forms that manifest themselves in the material world. Thus, while there may be many types of chairs (swivel, French provincial, Stichley, folding, La-Z-boy), they all share an essential “chairness,” a quality that Platonic thought would say emanates from the ideal form of “chair.” Likewise, despite the obvious enormous variety of humans (Male, female, caucasian, negroid, dwarf, giant, etc.), there must be an essential, transcendant model of humanness that encompasses all these possibilities.

http://ejmmm2007.blogspot.com/2007/01/a ... rdial.html

It just seems so wide open as to what this original heavenly man was "like" though, and in any event this kind of speculation is not my cup of tea and can be subsumed by my number one above:

... a "good Christian" is someone who:

1. Believes that Jesus was the Messiah/Daniel's "son of man"
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theeternaliam
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Re: What is a "good Christian"?

Post by theeternaliam » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:00 am

John2 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:48 pm
So, you believe death is stronger than love?
That death and destruction is the most powerful force?
That darkness swallows up light?

I would definitely disagree. I believe as the psalmist that love is stronger than the force of deep waters, that love is even stronger than death. I believe what is hidden will be revealed and Truth will be victorious over falsehood and deception and that, maybe, if we just move out of the way or get low and humble ourselves that the Light Above can shine forth and things won't seem so gloomy

I'm not interested in those questions or your beliefs.
Well, I hope that if you don't believe, you can at least Hope.

John2
Posts: 2777
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: What is a "good Christian"?

Post by John2 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:49 am

theeternaliam wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:00 am
John2 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:48 pm
So, you believe death is stronger than love?
That death and destruction is the most powerful force?
That darkness swallows up light?

I would definitely disagree. I believe as the psalmist that love is stronger than the force of deep waters, that love is even stronger than death. I believe what is hidden will be revealed and Truth will be victorious over falsehood and deception and that, maybe, if we just move out of the way or get low and humble ourselves that the Light Above can shine forth and things won't seem so gloomy

I'm not interested in those questions or your beliefs.
Well, I hope that if you don't believe, you can at least Hope.

I hope I will live a long and healthy life.
Show me something built to last.

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