John completes his "Course Work"

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Charles Wilson
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John completes his "Course Work"

Post by Charles Wilson »

BTW, in reviewing the material for a Post on an adjacent Thread, I ran across:

Acts 13: 25 (RSV):

[25] And as John was finishing his course, he said, `What do you suppose that I am? I am not he. No, but after me one is coming, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.'

WOW! What-ever does the word "Course" refer to? (Hint: The Mishmarot Priesthood)
Here is another small slip-up, a "Fatigue Factor" if you will. John isn't just wandering around near a river, baptizing people. He has his day job:

1. John is of the Mishmarot Priesthood.
2. He is of the Service Group "Bilgah", which was deemed Not Worthy for an Offense committed against the Priesthood.
3. After "Bilgah" comes "Immer".
4. "Jesus" is a rewrite of this Story.
5. The Father-Son-Holy Spirit material is grafted onto this Story.

CW
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John T
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Re: John completes his "Course Work"

Post by John T »

Charles Wilson wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:58 am BTW, in reviewing the material for a Post on an adjacent Thread, I ran across:

Acts 13: 25 (RSV):

[25] And as John was finishing his course, he said, `What do you suppose that I am? I am not he. No, but after me one is coming, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.'

WOW! What-ever does the word "Course" refer to? (Hint: The Mishmarot Priesthood)
Here is another small slip-up, a "Fatigue Factor" if you will. John isn't just wandering around near a river, baptizing people. He has his day job:

CW
Dromos (course) means running.
In other words, John after completing his race course (running) around the river baptizing people (which was his day job), was asked who the heck he thought he was.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Charles Wilson
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Re: John completes his "Course Work"

Post by Charles Wilson »

John T --

We'll have to agree to disagree here.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/mi ... -ma-amadot : "The term which is rendered as "course" (Heb. mishmar, mishmarot) is the one used in post-biblical sources (The Scroll of the War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness, p. 2, 2ff.; Suk. 5:6–7; Ta'an. 2:6–7, et al.), whereas the Bible generally employs the term "division" (Heb. maḥlakah, maḥlakot)".

See also: Eisenman and Wise, Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered, ISBN-10: 0140232508, ISBN-13: 978-0140232509, "Calendrical Texts and Priestly Courses".

Before you jump to the Apologetix version, plz look at the L-O-N-G history of the Mishmarot Priesthood.

Luke 1: 5 (RSV):

[5] In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari'ah, of the division of Abi'jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.

This is why the "slip/fatigue" moment in Acts is important. It isn't "running" and John isn't trying out his new track shoes. John is a member of the Mishmarot Priesthood

CW
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John T
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Re: John completes his "Course Work"

Post by John T »

Charles Wilson wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:18 pm
Before you jump to the Apologetix version, plz look at the L-O-N-G history of the Mishmarot Priesthood.

This is why the "slip/fatigue" moment in Acts is important. It isn't "running" and John isn't trying out his new track shoes. John is a member of the Mishmarot Priesthood

CW
Sure, I'll take a look at the Mishmarot Priesthood. Any links that you can provide will help ease the search.

By the way, just so you know, I strongly believe that John the Baptist was an excommunicated Essene.

Thanks in advance,

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Charles Wilson
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Re: John completes his "Course Work"

Post by Charles Wilson »

Thank you, John T --

I'm going to list a few things to get started and I'll add to them as things come back into my fog bound brain:

1. Mishmarot: As given above, look first at 1 Chronicles 24:

1 Chronicles 24: 1 - 19 (RSV):

[1]The divisions of the sons of Aaron were these. The sons of Aaron: Nadab, Abi'hu, Elea'zar, and Ith'amar.
[2] But Nadab and Abi'hu died before their father, and had no children, so Elea'zar and Ith'amar became the priests.
[3] With the help of Zadok of the sons of Elea'zar, and Ahim'elech of the sons of Ith'amar, David organized them according to the appointed duties in their service.
[4] Since more chief men were found among the sons of Elea'zar than among the sons of Ith'amar, they organized them under sixteen heads of fathers' houses of the sons of Elea'zar, and eight of the sons of Ith'amar.
[5] They organized them by lot, all alike, for there were officers of the sanctuary and officers of God among both the sons of Elea'zar and the sons of Ith'amar.
[6] And the scribe Shemai'ah the son of Nethan'el, a Levite, recorded them in the presence of the king, and the princes, and Zadok the priest, and Ahim'elech the son of Abi'athar, and the heads of the fathers' houses of the priests and of the Levites; one father's house being chosen for Elea'zar and one chosen for Ith'amar.
[7] The first lot fell to Jehoi'arib, the second to Jedai'ah,
[8] the third to Harim, the fourth to Se-o'rim,
[9] the fifth to Malchi'jah, the sixth to Mij'amin,
[10] the seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abi'jah,
[11] the ninth to Jeshua, the tenth to Shecani'ah,
[12] the eleventh to Eli'ashib, the twelfth to Jakim,
[13] the thirteenth to Huppah, the fourteenth to Jesheb'e-ab,
[14] the fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer,
[15] the seventeenth to Hezir, the eighteenth to Hap'pizzez,
[16] the nineteenth to Pethahi'ah, the twentieth to Jehez'kel,
[17] the twenty-first to Jachin, the twenty-second to Gamul,
[18] the twenty-third to Delai'ah, the twenty-fourth to Ma-azi'ah.
[19] These had as their appointed duty in their service to come into the house of the LORD according to the procedure established for them by Aaron their father, as the LORD God of Israel had commanded him.

2. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/mi ... -ma-amadot : There is a lot of information in this summary and I request you read it carefully.

"With minor differences, these names are the same as those of the priestly clans listed in Nehemiah 12:12–20, which is attributed to the time of Joiakim, the high priest and the father of the high priest Eliashib of the period of Nehemiah. Fifteen names in the latter list are identical with the names of the signers of the covenant, including the eight clans which figure in the list of divisions in Chronicles; and it includes two names which recur in the Chronicles list, including Jehoiarib (Joiarib), the division to which the Hasmoneans belonged. These two lists – of Nehemiah 10 and of Nehemiah 12 – also predate the list of 24 priestly divisions in the book of Chronicles.

WAYTAMINNIT! Who? "...Jehoiarib (Joiarib), the division to which the Hasmoneans belonged." Who were these "Hasmoneans" and how did they get to be first in line since they aren't in the List of Returnees? OH! When Herod gives his last speech before he dies he decries that he did more in his years as the Asamoneans did in all of their 125 years of rule! Why would he waste time with that? After all, he murdered all of the Ruling Line of the Hasmoneans during his reign of terror. Why won't these people just die and go away?

3. Shulamit Elizur and Uzi Leibner. SE is a first rank scholar. She has published books on the Piyyutim in Jewish and Rabbinic Literature. Jehoiarib is not the only Course that is important. Look at the 15th and 16th Mishmarot Groups in the 1 Chronicles 24 List.

Bilgah and Immer.

Uzi Leibner published a book, https://www.amazon.com/Settlement-Histo ... 3161498712 and before I die ("What time is it?") I hope to own a hard copy of this most important book. It is exhaustively researched and footnoted. For this purpose, it is important to note that the Mishmarot Priesthood had Settlements assigned to them IN GALILEE. The Lists of these Settlements were found in many areas around Galilee and appear to have been formed before the end of Hasmonean Rule.

4. Jehoiarib is given Meiron. Immer is given Jabnit, just down the street from Meiron. IMMER BELIEVES THAT THE HASMONEANS CAME FROM THEM.
https://books.google.com/books?id=bsxkX ... it&f=false

5. Why is this important? It can be shown that it is possible to find out which Mishmarot Group was on Duty for any given week. Next book: Eisenman and Wise, Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered, https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Sea-Scrolls ... enman+wise

See: The chapter titled "Calendrical Texts and Priestly Courses". The Qumran people used Mishmarot as a check on the various calendars used by not only their group but by the opposition groups in Jerusalem.

6. This all leads to a moment in History. The Destruction of the Temple is laid at the feet of Jehoiarib. It is stated that Jehoiarib was on Duty for BOTH Destructions of the Temple and we can then extract the Mishmarot Schedule from the date of the destruction.

7. Remember the mention above of Bilgah and Immer? http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3298-bilgah

Here is where I start sticking my nose into things. Bilgah is diminished in the eyes of the Priesthood for an offense against them. "They are not worthy to (As pertains to the Temple Animal Sacrifices i.e. cattle) untie the straps of the sandals of those fellow Priests". Especially the one who follows and yet is ahead of Bilgah. That would be Immer.

8. There was a Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread where 3000+ people were massacred, one week-ish after the death of Herod. PASSOVER, A TIME WHEN YOU ARE COMMANDED BY GOD TO APPEAR, IS CANCELLED. The Nation is Unclean. Which Mishmarot Groups were on Duty for Passover and the Feast at this 4 BCE Passover?

Bilgah. Immer.

9. You can read about this - sorta' - in Josephus: Antiquities..., 17, 9, 2+ and War..., 2, 1, 3+, although you will be hard pressed to figure who is doing what or why. Josephus is, IMHO, HIDING what is in plain sight with the Priesthood here.

I contend that the "Jesus Stories" came from this event for the most part. "From the fact that the "Jesus Stories" were written from Sources, it does not follow that the Source Stories were written about "Jesus"."

10. One more small note. I really don't have much of an argument with the Greekies here. I believe that the arguments for the "Bible-was-written-in-Greek" hide some things that might otherwise be interesting to look at.

Like the word "Lamb".

http://www.newjerusalem.org/Strongs/H564

My usual URL for this will not come up so I found another one. Note that this page does not give the words "Immar" and "Immer" with diacriticals, a 5th/6th century invention.

The word for "Lamb" is IDENTICAL to the word for "The sixteenth Mishmarot Group". That is "Immer". Would it too much to believe that there might be a Word Play set up here with "Lamb" as a cipher for "The Group which was murdered serving at Passover in 4 BCE?"

Revelation 5: 6 (in part), 9 - 10 (RSV):

[6] And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain...
...
[9] and they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals,
for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God
from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
[10] and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth."

This ought to get you started. Please believe me, there is much, much more.

CW
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John T
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Re: John completes his "Course Work"

Post by John T »

Does this site help?

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/mi ... -ma-amadot

Please do not read any sarcasm into the following comments/questions.

I read the link I provided and kinda sorta understand it.
I re-read your posts on this thread and kinda sorta understand it.

Are you saying that John the Baptist was not allowed to serve as a ma'amad (a priest that sacrifices the lambs at the temple) so he preached to the locals by the river Jordan instead?

Or are you saying that John was selected by lot to go into the temple and burn the morning incense but declined because his division was not worthy like his father Zechariah who was a member of the Abijah, divison? Luke 1:5


Sincerely,

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Charles Wilson
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Re: John completes his "Course Work"

Post by Charles Wilson »

John T wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:47 pm Does this site help?
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/mi ... -ma-amadot
Yes, it does. That's the site referenced in my Post, listed as #2 above. There are other summaries and they are all of value.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... service-of , for example.
Please do not read any sarcasm into the following comments/questions.
I am happy that you asked for some clarification. No sarcasm needed. None offered. Thanx.
I read the link I provided and kinda sorta understand it.
I re-read your posts on this thread and kinda sorta understand it.
It will make sense as you review it. Remember that the Temple Service was highly respected. It was "God's Temple" and the Mishmarot Service was majestic in its scope. Animal sacrifice was not "Done away with" at the destruction of the Temple - Titus sacrificed hundreds of animals on the Temple site after the Temple was destroyed. It was only later that the "replacement Sacrifice" took over the thoughts of the believers. This was, of course, the reassertion of human sacrifice and that was simply not acceptable to the surviving Jews. If you would understand the Mishmarot Service, view it from the POV of the practitioners, not as the Transvalued archaic structure that was back-mapped onto it later.
Are you saying that John the Baptist was not allowed to serve as a ma'amad (a priest that sacrifices the lambs at the temple) so he preached to the locals by the river Jordan instead?
Or are you saying that John was selected by lot to go into the temple and burn the morning incense but declined because his division was not worthy like his father Zechariah who was a member of the Abijah, divison? Luke 1:5
No. I am saying that there appears to be a Story, a very Noir Story, that followed the abortive Coup that was plotted against Herod in 4 BCE. All we have as evidence for this Story is what we find in the NT, Josephus in Antiquities... and War... and other places (Tacitus, for instance).

If you search and search some more, you will find very few Stories of any of the 24 Courses in any surviving literature. If Luke 1: 5 had not made it into the NT, there might not be any knowledge of Mishmarot, as there would have been little knowledge of Archelaus in the NT without the false trail given about Archelaus.

Let's just go with 3, leaving out "Abijah" and the "mere listing" of the 24:

1. Jehoiarib. Listed first in 1 Chronicles 24. Eisenman and Wise examine a little mischief here: "The vernal New Year meant that the priestly cycle would begin with Gamul" (p. 109). It starts with Jehoiarib in 1 Chronicles 24. Why? The Hasmoneans who come from Jehoiarib (and Immer...) want the Leading Role in Rulership and Temple Priesthood. First!!!

2. Bilgah. This is an explicit Story of the Priesthood and it is VERY interesting to me that the discernible Mishmarot Story has Bilgah and Immer as Central Players. THEREFORE:

A. Assume as True that one can show that Bilgah and Immer are the Mishmarot Groups on Duty for the 4 BCE Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread AND that this is the Story that was stolen and rewritten for the New Religion.

B. John is performing his Duty as a member of Bilgah for Passover and the High Sabbath of the Feast. Bilgah's knives are shut in the locked closet and Bilgah's Ring is "nailed down". Bilgah is away from the other 23 Groups, given a work-space on the south side of the Temple. It does not mean "he" is prevented from performing his Mishmarot Duties.

C. Immer follows Bilgah and here is where it gets both complicated and interesting. If "A" is accepted, it should be seen that the Coup is being fomented under the leadership of Priests of Immer. It is a sure thing. Herod is dying in Jericho. Willing participants are among the Priests.

What could go wrong?

Herod dies too soon and the Scribes and the Pharisees and ummm....those Romans have time to develop a Counter-Attack with Archelaus as "King". A man named Ptolemy, brother of one Nicholas of Damascus, carries Herod's Seal! LO! Herod "Changes" his Will in favor of Archelaus! The people stream in for the Passover Coup and are murdered when the soldiers are ordered in to clear the Temple early in the morning.

NOW: Look back at John, of Bilgah. He does his job but he is considered "Not Worthy". How do we know this?:

Mark 1: 7 (RSV):

[7] And he preached, saying, "After me comes he who is mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.

John 1: 26 - 29 (RSV):

[26] John answered them, "I baptize with water; but among you stands one whom you do not know,
[27] even he who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie."
[28] This took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
[29] The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John performs the Sacrifices but is not worthy to untie the THONG of the person who follows. i.e. IMMER. BTW, note what follows in John: If you see something like "Arnon tou Theou", you miss the linguistics. Try "Immar-Yah" instead. Yes, there is a Hebrew Source at work here.

Now go back to the quote from Acts 5: 25 (RSV):

[25] And as John was finishing his course, he said, `What do you suppose that I am? I am not he. No, but after me one is coming, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.'

John is a member of the Mishmarot Priesthood. He performs Sacrifices in the Temple as a Good Member of Bilgah. There is someone who follows him (Immer follows Bilgah) but this "person" is actually "Ahead" of him since Bilgah is deprecated in the eyes of the Mishmarot Priesthood.

QED.
Sincerely,
John T
I believe it and I thank you for that.

CW
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John T
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Re: John completes his "Course Work"

Post by John T »

Thanks for providing additional information. Clearly you have given much thought and study on this. However, it is still too complex for me to fully understand at this point, so I need more time to research. I will get back in a few days for an update.

Question: Could the Teacher of Righteousness be from the division/course of Immer?

Question: Is Immer a division of Zadok?

Sincerely,

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Charles Wilson
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Re: John completes his "Course Work"

Post by Charles Wilson »

John T wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:18 pmThanks for providing additional information. Clearly you have given much thought and study on this. However, it is still too complex for me to fully understand at this point, so I need more time to research. I will get back in a few days for an update.
You are welcome.
Question: Could the Teacher of Righteousness be from the division/course of Immer?
i don't know. Jannaeus figures in to this somewhere but I ain't smart enuff to get it. Eisenman and Wise refute the idea that Jannaeus is the Wicked Priest: "Alexander Jannaeus or other wilderness -fighting characters cannot have been 'the Wicked Priest'. This is a contradiction in terms, and shows a complete failure to grasp the import of the materials in front of us" (DSSU, p. 276). Does that make Jannaeus the Teacher of righteousness?

Immer does have an intriguing footnote in a Piyyutim of R. El'azar ha-Qallir:

"Instead of a sound of weeping,
a Divine voice was heard in Malchijah (the fifth course)
"the youngsters gained a victory in Antioch"
The four heads of the Tiger (a symbol for the Greeks)
were shattered by the youngsters of Immer (the sixteenth course)
in the command of the guard (God)
To announce in the streets of Jabnit
that the spear has slashed every Greek tongue.

Perhaps one day someone will find the answers here.
Question: Is Immer a division of Zadok?
No, I don't think so. Again:

1 Chronicles 24: 3 - 6 (RSV):

[3] With the help of Zadok of the sons of Elea'zar, and Ahim'elech of the sons of Ith'amar, David organized them according to the appointed duties in their service.
[4] Since more chief men were found among the sons of Elea'zar than among the sons of Ith'amar, they organized them under sixteen heads of fathers' houses of the sons of Elea'zar, and eight of the sons of Ith'amar.
[5] They organized them by lot, all alike, for there were officers of the sanctuary and officers of God among both the sons of Elea'zar and the sons of Ith'amar.
[6] And the scribe Shemai'ah the son of Nethan'el, a Levite, recorded them in the presence of the king, and the princes, and Zadok the priest, and Ahim'elech the son of Abi'athar, and the heads of the fathers' houses of the priests and of the Levites; one father's house being chosen for Elea'zar and one chosen for Ith'amar.

There may be something going on here since Zadok and Ahimelech are mentioned several times. I dunno. What we have are 16 Mishmarot Groups to Eleazar and 8 to Ithamar. You raise a good point.

CW
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John T
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Re: John completes his "Course Work"

Post by John T »

I have a few questions that are in no particular order or value.

1. Is John from the ancestral house of Zadok (Eleazar) or from the line of Ahimelech son of Abiathar (Ithamar)? Zadok and Abiathar were co-high priests under David: one was at Jerusalem and the other at Gibeon.

2.. If John is from the division of Bilgah, does that mean Bilgah is a branch of Abijah? According to Luke, John's father Zechariah was of the division of Abijah. Luke 1:5.

3. Are you saying that John the Baptist was officiating at the time of the Archelaus massacre in 4 BCE? The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 17/9/3 (218).

3. You cite the post-biblical meaning of mishmarot as 'course' rather than 'division' from The Scroll of the War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness. Is that scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls? If so, please provide the Dead Sea Scrolls Catalogue number. I can't find it among cave four listings.

4. According to Calendars of Priestly Courses (4Q320-30) Immer follows Jakim not Bilgah.

Sincerely,
John T
Last edited by John T on Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
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