The Paradigmatic Rhetoric of Paul's Seven Authentic Letters

[beowulf]

PhilosopherJay wrote

"Paul's whole discussion of his fights with the Jews in Jerusalem would be a long and pointless digression unless these Jews were the same people trying to get the Galatians to follow Jewish laws."

Yes, I think you are right . J. Louis Martyn says this about the conflict in Galatia:

Galatians (The Anchor Yale Bible Commentaries) [Paperback]
J. Louis Martyn (Author
Series: The Anchor Yale Bible Commentaries
Paperback: 638 pages
Publisher: Yale University Press (December 23, 2004)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0300139853
ISBN-13: 978-0300139853
http://www.amazon.com/Galatians-Anchor- ... 0300139853
Page 118- 119


“Data in the letter [Galatians] shows the Teachers [ the name given by J. Louis Martyn to the opponents of Paul in the church of Galatia] to have connections both with Diaspora Judaism and with Palestinian, Christian Judaism....
From Galatians itself, we can also see that the Teachers are in touch with- indeed , understand themselves to represent- a powerful circle of Christian Jews in the Jerusalem church, a group utterly zealous for observance of the Law ( comments #25.#45.and #46)”

[robert j]

Hi beowulf,

beowulf wrote,

"… J. Louis Martyn says this about the conflict in Galatia …

…Galatians (The Anchor Yale Bible Commentaries) …Page 118- 119"

“Data in the letter [Galatians] shows the Teachers [ the name given by J. Louis Martyn to the opponents of Paul in the church of Galatia] to have connections both with Diaspora Judaism and with Palestinian, Christian Judaism....
From Galatians itself, we can also see that the Teachers are in touch with- indeed , understand themselves to represent- a powerful circle of Christian Jews in the Jerusalem church, a group utterly zealous for observance of the Law ( comments #25.#45.and #46)”

This is an appeal to authority (which can at times be useful), but the statements "Data in the letter shows" and "From Galatians itself we can see" are entirely unsupported assertions.

Unless you present that data, and cite the passages from Galatians that support the claim that Paul's opponents in Galatia represented Christian Jews from the Jerusalem church --- these kind of statements have no power of persuasion.

robert j.

[beowulf]

I am not trying to persuade anyone and it is not an argument from authority, either.

I say that many people who have studied these things say what Martyn is saying. I am also saying this conclusion is the only reasonable one to make according to my understanding of the causes of the conflict.

I don’t know what is it that you believe happened in Galatia, but for Martyn, and others, Galatia is only one incident more in a long protracted ‘cold war’ between him and powerful elements in the Jerusalem church.

The statement of Philosopher Jay is very reasonable and it is also my understanding of the problem.

PS This book is available in Public libraries. Read it and will discuss it here

[robert j]

Hi beowulf,

beowulf wrote,
"I don’t know what is it that you believe happened in Galatia, but for Martyn, and others, Galatia is only one incident more in a long protracted ‘cold war’ between him and powerful elements in the Jerusalem church."

What I believe happened in Galatia is almost entirely based on what I find in Paul's five authentic letters that were written to his communities (1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, and 1 Thessalonians).

While I accept the authenticity of those letters, I certainly recognize that many of my interpretations run counter to those of the mainstream of Christian scholarship. I believe that too many of the important conclusions of the mainstream are not adequately supported by the letters.

If you can stick to those five letters (or use all 7 if you wish) --- and resist appealing to the all too fictitious Acts of the Apostles --- I would like to see the evidence for "a long protracted ‘cold war’ between him [Paul] and powerful elements in the Jerusalem church."

And when I say evidence, I mean relevant citations from the letters with supporting arguments.

If you must appeal to Acts, our basic assumptions are too far apart for a beneficial interchange, and I choose not to participate.

robert j.

[beowulf]

Hi beowulf,

beowulf wrote,
"I don’t know what is it that you believe happened in Galatia, but for Martyn, and others, Galatia is only one incident more in a long protracted ‘cold war’ between him and powerful elements in the Jerusalem church."

What I believe happened in Galatia is almost entirely based on what I find in Paul's five authentic letters that were written to his communities (1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, and 1 Thessalonians).

While I accept the authenticity of those letters, I certainly recognize that many of my interpretations run counter to those of the mainstream of Christian scholarship. I believe that too many of the important conclusions of the mainstream are not adequately supported by the letters.

If you can stick to those five letters (or use all 7 if you wish) --- and resist appealing to the all too fictitious Acts of the Apostles --- I would like to see the evidence for "a long protracted ‘cold war’ between him [Paul] and powerful elements in the Jerusalem church."

And when I say evidence, I mean relevant citations from the letters with supporting arguments.

If you must appeal to Acts, our basic assumptions are too far apart for a beneficial interchange, and I choose not to participate.

robert j.

What do you think happened in Galatia?

[beowulf]

Hi beowulf,

beowulf wrote,
"I don’t know what is it that you believe happened in Galatia, but for Martyn, and others, Galatia is only one incident more in a long protracted ‘cold war’ between him and powerful elements in the Jerusalem church."

What I believe happened in Galatia is almost entirely based on what I find in Paul's five authentic letters that were written to his communities (1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, and 1 Thessalonians).

While I accept the authenticity of those letters, I certainly recognize that many of my interpretations run counter to those of the mainstream of Christian scholarship. I believe that too many of the important conclusions of the mainstream are not adequately supported by the letters.

If you can stick to those five letters (or use all 7 if you wish) --- and resist appealing to the all too fictitious Acts of the Apostles --- I would like to see the evidence for "a long protracted ‘cold war’ between him [Paul] and powerful elements in the Jerusalem church."

And when I say evidence, I mean relevant citations from the letters with supporting arguments.

If you must appeal to Acts, our basic assumptions are too far apart for a beneficial interchange, and I choose not to participate.

robert j.

Galatians 2
1Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2I went up in response to a revelation. Then I laid before them (though only in a private meeting with the acknowledged leaders) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure that I was not running, or had not run, in vain.
NB . Paul was not sure if what he was teaching was to be approved, after 14 years of teaching it and he went to Jerusalem because of a revelation

3But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.
NB he is glad that they did not force him to fight

4But because of false believers* secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might enslave us— 5we did not submit to them even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might always remain with you
NB however, the false believers in the Jerusalem church tried to enslave him and his converts. But he did not submit to them and he will never surrender to the enemies of the truth.


6And from those who were supposed to be acknowledged leaders (what they actually were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those leaders contributed nothing to me.
NB He speaks with contempt of the leaders who did nothing for him

Eventually there was a handshake sealing a division of duties: Paul will preach the Gentiles and the pillars of the Jerusalem church will preach the Jews.

To be continued

[robert j]

Hi beowulf,

beowulf asked,
"What do you think happened in Galatia?"

I honestly wish I had the time to give a detailed answer. For now, I'll only say that in his letter to the Galatians, Paul does not provide enough information to clearly characterize the local opposition. He certainly doesn't give enough information to conclude they were representatives from Jerusalem. Perhaps he's not even really sure who they were beyond the fact that they were promoting circumcision.

I have a theory who they were, but it doesn't qualify more than a plausible scenario --- perhaps someday I'll post it.

For now, I'm interested in claims that have already been posted --- like the assertion that the opposition in Galatia were representatives from Jerusalem. Do you have anything convincing from Paul's authentic letters? My mind is open and I would be happy to be proven wrong.

robert j.

[beowulf]

Hi beowulf,

beowulf asked,
"What do you think happened in Galatia?"

I honestly wish I had the time to give a detailed answer. For now, I'll only say that in his letter to the Galatians, Paul does not provide enough information to clearly characterize the local opposition. He certainly doesn't give enough information to conclude they were representatives from Jerusalem. Perhaps he's not even really sure who they were beyond the fact that they were promoting circumcision.

I have a theory who they were, but it doesn't qualify more than a plausible scenario --- perhaps someday I'll post it.

For now, I'm interested in claims that have already been posted --- like the assertion that the opposition in Galatia were representatives from Jerusalem. Do you have anything convincing from Paul's authentic letters? My mind is open and I would be happy to be proven wrong.

robert j.

If you have an open mind you must show it by remembering correctly was it was said.
The quote copied correctly from the book is:

“Data in the letter [Galatians] shows the Teachers [ the name given by J. Louis Martyn to the opponents of Paul in the church of Galatia] to have connections both with Diaspora Judaism and with Palestinian, Christian Judaism....
From Galatians itself, we can also see that the Teachers are in touch with- indeed , understand themselves to represent- a powerful circle of Christian Jews in the Jerusalem church, a group utterly zealous for observance of the Law ( comments #25.#45.and #46)”


As you can see, Martyn is saying that on hearing the evidence [epistle to Galatians] the jury will be convinced that the teachers –understand themselves to represent a powerful circle of Christian Jews in the Jerusalem church in touch with them. Martyn does not say the teachers pleaded guilty.

Paul tell us in Gal 2 that a secrete group that he calls the “ false believers” sabotaged the private top level conference he was holding with the leaders in Jerusalem . It is the claim of the prosecution that this same group was active ln Antioch and Galatia.
The false believers at the headquarters of the church in Jerusalem are behind the activities of the Teachers/Opponents/Troublemakers and whichever other name.


You have no time and want a magic word, but all what I wanted to do was to say that Philosopher Jay's understanding of Galatians is a very reasonable one to hold.

[robert j]

Hi beowulf,

beowulf wrote,
"You have no time and want a magic word, but all what I wanted to do was to say that Philosopher Jay's understanding of Galatians is a very reasonable one to hold."

My apology for misinterpreting your intention.

Sincerely, robert j.

[beowulf]

Hi beowulf,

beowulf wrote,
"You have no time and want a magic word, but all what I wanted to do was to say that Philosopher Jay's understanding of Galatians is a very reasonable one to hold."

My apology for misinterpreting your intention.

Sincerely, robert j.

There is no need for an apology.
Good night