Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:49 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:39 am
Ok but also the Pillars of Hercules were originally "support for something on top of the pillar", insofar they were φαλλοί of the god Melkart/Hercules. Only later they were considered the pillars of a gate.

So could something of similar be happened also for the Pillars of Galatians?
Sure, why not? Show me.
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:54 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:49 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:39 am
Ok but also the Pillars of Hercules were originally "support for something on top of the pillar", insofar they were φαλλοί of the god Melkart/Hercules. Only later they were considered the pillars of a gate.

So could something of similar be happened also for the Pillars of Galatians?
Sure, why not? Show me.
maybe you're asking for a little too much :confusedsmiley:
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:58 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:54 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:49 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:39 am
Ok but also the Pillars of Hercules were originally "support for something on top of the pillar", insofar they were φαλλοί of the god Melkart/Hercules. Only later they were considered the pillars of a gate.

So could something of similar be happened also for the Pillars of Galatians?
Sure, why not? Show me.
maybe you're asking for a little too much :confusedsmiley:
Asking you for evidence of your proposed trajectory of development is asking too much?
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by Ethan » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:54 pm

They are just boundary markers to aid Mediterranean sailors.

The Biblical version of Hercules is Samson, son of Manoah , later changed into Sam son of Noah

Judges 16:29
And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left

Judges 16:30
And Samson said, Let me die with the Gauls

This is the Phoenician or Original layer of the Old Testament.

Christians and Jews believe Phoenicians never existed.
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:08 pm

Ethan wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:54 pm
Christians and Jews believe Phoenicians never existed.
What??
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:07 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:58 am
Sure, why not? Show me.
maybe you're asking for a little too much :confusedsmiley:
Asking you for evidence of your proposed trajectory of development is asking too much?
I was joking, obviously. :tomato:
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

John2
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by John2 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:36 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
So I wonder if the Pillars claimed that title for themselves. More precisely, if being a "Brother of Lord" was a direct corollary of the being a "Pillar".

In this connection, it is curious that Hegesippus put on mouth of the his invented James "the Just" ("Just" as the creator hated by Marcion) the words about an enigmatic "Gate of Jesus". Now, a gate should have two Pillars. Think about the two Pillars of Hercules: their function is precisely that of a gate.
Or maybe it has something to do with what James says about the "coming of the Lord" in 5:8-9:
... be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door.
Both instances, in my view (and Paul's reference to James and other Jewish Christians as "pillars" in Galatians), are reflecting the kind of Jewish Christianity that is in Rev. 3:7-4:1:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut ...

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches ...

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven.
This is exactly what Hegesippus says about James and other Jewish Christians in EH 2.23.8-13 and 3.20.6:
Now some of the seven sects, which existed among the people and which have been mentioned by me in the Memoirs, asked him, 'What is the gate of Jesus?' and he replied that he was the Saviour.

On account of these words some believed that Jesus is the Christ. But the sects mentioned above did not believe either in a resurrection or in one's coming to give to every man according to his works. But as many as believed did so on account of James ...

The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: 'You just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus.'

And he answered with a loud voice, 'Why do you ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man? He himself sits in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven.'
And when they were asked concerning Christ and his kingdom, of what sort it was and where and when it was to appear, they answered that it was not a temporal nor an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly and angelic one, which would appear at the end of the world, when he should come in glory to judge the quick and the dead, and to give unto every one according to his works.
Revelation, Hegesippus, the Letter of James (in my view), and Paul (and Mark and Matthew, for that matter) are all in sync regarding Jewish Christianity. Jesus is the Son of Man who will come on the clouds of heaven soon, and James and other Jewish Christians were regarded as "pillars" of the temple of God (whatever that may mean), and the portal to get to and from heaven is a gate or door(s), through which the Son of Man will come and judge everyone according to their "works." So I don't think Hegesippus "invented" anything so much as just said what there is to say about Jewish Christianity.
Last edited by John2 on Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by John2 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:35 pm

I look at it this way (and I think others have made this argument here before). James is a "pillar" (Gal. 1:19) and a "brother of the Lord" (Gal. 2:9), while Cephas is a pillar (Gal. 2:9) and not a brother of the Lord (1 Cor. 9:5), so being a brother of the Lord has nothing to do with being a pillar.

I think being a pillar has to do with enduring patiently until Jesus comes on the clouds of heaven, like in Rev. 3:10-12 and (in my view) James 5:7-8:
Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near.
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by John2 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:24 pm

All these ideas come together in 1 Peter, which I think is genuine and sums up Jewish Christianity well, and answers the historical vs. mythical Jesus question in 3:18-22:
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.


The word for "body" in 3:18 above is sarx, which is defined as "flesh, body, human nature, materiality," and Peter contrasts it with spirit:

http://biblehub.com/greek/4561.htm

1 Peter 4:1-7:
Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God ... But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. The end of all things is near.
1 Peter 5:1
... I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed.
1 Peter 1:4-5:
This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:13:
Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming.
This is all in keeping with everything I cited in the posts above. And I think 1 Peter 2:4-7 offers additional evidence that Jesus was a human being:
As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Not only is this in keeping with the Dead Sea Scrolls (which are pre-70 CE and also espouse the idea of being a "spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices"), it underlines that Jesus was rejected by humans, like in Mk. 8:31 ("He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again").

I think this is "it" in a nutshell, from someone who was there, like in 1 John 1:1-3 (who I think was the pillar John):
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us.
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Re: Did the pillars claim to be "Brothers of the Lord"?

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:14 am

It is surprising (=unexpected, =improbable) that 1 Peter, James and Revelation don't appeal to a historical Jesus against Paul (and paulines) differently from Hegesippus. And James should have much more interest than a Hegesippus in proclaiming himself as "brother of Jesus" but he didn't so. This is for me evidence that something had changed in the concept of Jesus from the time of 1 Peter, James, Revelation to the time of Hegesippus.

And I would call that "something" by only an apt term: euhemerization.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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