How Could Symeon be James the Just's Successor on the Episcopal Throne of Jerusalem if He was Crucified Under Trajan?

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John T
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Re: How Could Symeon be James the Just's Successor on the Episcopal Throne of Jerusalem if He was Crucified Under Trajan

Post by John T »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:02 pm The episcopal list of Hegesippus as preserved in Epiphanius and Eusebius (independently of one another) reads:
1. James, who was martyred in Jerusalem by beating with a cudgel. [He lived] until the time of Nero.
2. Symeon, was crucified under Trajan.
3. Judah
4. Zachariah
5. Tobiah
6. Benjamin
7. John, bringing us to the ninth [or] tenth year of Trajan (98, 99 CE)
8, Matthias
9. Philip
10. Seneca
11. Justus, bringing us to Hadrian (c. 117 CE).
12. Levi
13. Vaphres
14. Jose(ph)
15. Judah, bringing us to the eleventh year of Antonius.(147 CE) The above were the circumcised bishops of Jerusalem.
How is that explained?
James Tabor suggests: " What is more likely is that this list of twelve represent a "Council of Twelve," who held office as a group, following the model that Jesus had established." pg 291 The Jesus Dynasty.

What is the difference between a circumcised bishop of Jerusalem and say a gentile bishop from Rome?
Last edited by John T on Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Secret Alias
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Re: How Could Symeon be James the Just's Successor on the Episcopal Throne of Jerusalem if He was Crucified Under Trajan

Post by Secret Alias »

A couple of things you aren't getting I think:

1. Symeon's death is EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY mentioned as occurring in a specific year with Symeon clearly at an old enough age to make the reference to him being a 'bishop' of Jerusalem at least mathematically plausible. From Eusebius:
Some of these heretics, forsooth, laid an information against Symeon the son of Clopas, as being of the family of David, and a Christian. And on these charges he suffered martyrdom when he was 120 years old, in the reign of Trajan Caesar, when Atticus was consular legate in Syria. And it so happened, says the same writer, that, while inquiry was then being made for those belonging to the royal tribe of the Jews, the accusers themselves were convicted of belonging to it. With show of reason could it be said that Symeon was one of those who actually saw and heard the Lord, on the ground of his great age, and also because the Scripture of the Gospels makes mention of Mary the daughter of Clopas, who, as our narrative has shown already, was his father.

The same historian mentions others also, of the family of one of the reputed brothers of the Saviour, named Judas, as having survived until this same reign, after the testimony they bore for the faith of Christ in the time of Domitian, as already recorded.

He writes as follows: They came, then, and took the presidency of every church, as witnesses for Christ, and as being of the kindred of the Lord. And, after profound peace had been established in every church, they remained down to the reign of Trojan Caesar: that is, until the time when he who was sprung from an uncle of the Lord, the aforementioned Symeon son of Clopas, was informed against by the various heresies, and subjected to an accusation like the rest, and for the same cause, before the legate Atticus; and, while suffering outrage during many days, he bore testimony for Christ: so that all, including the legate himself, were astonished above measure that a man 120 years old should have been able to endure such torments. He was finally condemned to be crucified.

... Up to that period the Church had remained like a virgin pure and uncorrupted: for, if there were any persons who were disposed to tamper with the wholesome rule of the preaching of salvation, they still lurked in some dark place of concealment or other. But, when the sacred band of apostles had in various ways closed their lives, and that generation of men to whom it had been vouchsafed to listen to the Godlike Wisdom with their own ears had passed away, then did the confederacy of godless error take its rise through the treachery of false teachers, who, seeing that none of the apostles any longer survived, at length attempted with bare and uplifted head to oppose the preaching of the truth by preaching "knowledge falsely so called."

Concerning his journey to Rome, and the Jewish sects.

And the church of the Corinthians continued in the orthodox faith up to the time when Primus was bishop in Corinth. I had some intercourse with these brethren on my voyage to Rome, when I spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were mutually refreshed by the orthodox faith.

On my arrival at Rome, I drew up a list of the succession of bishops down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. To Anicetus succeeded Soter, and after him came Eleutherus. But in the case of every succession, and in every city, the state of affairs is in accordance with the teaching of the Law and of the Prophets and of the Lord....

And after James the Just had suffered martyrdom, as had the Lord also and on the same account, again Symeon the son of Clopas, descended from the Lord's uncle, is made bishop, his election being promoted by all as being a kinsman of the Lord.

Therefore was the Church called a virgin, for she was not as yet corrupted by worthless teaching. Thebulis it was who, displeased because he was not made bishop, first began to corrupt her by stealth. He too was connected with the seven sects which existed among the people, like Simon, from whom come the Simoniani; and Cleobius, from whom come the Cleobiani; and Doritheus, from whom come the Dorithiani; and Gorthaeus, from whom come the Gortheani; Masbothaeus, from whom come the Masbothaei. From these men also come the Menandrianists, and the Marcionists, and the Carpocratians, and the Valentinians, and the Basilidians, and the Saturnilians. Each of these leaders in his own private and distinct capacity brought in his own private opinion. From these have come false Christs, false prophets, false apostles-men who have split up the one Church into parts through their corrupting doctrines, uttered in disparagement of God and of His Christ....

There were, moreover, various opinions in the matter of circumcision among the children of Israel, held by those who were opposed to the tribe of Judah and to Christ: such as the Essenes, the Galileans, the Hemerobaptists, the Masbothaei, the Samaritans, the Sadducees, the Pharisees.
There are two issues here. The issue I am asking about viz. how could the author have justified, explained, thought, understood that someone could be a bishop let's say in 60 CE and then continue living for 40 years or so and have five or six other men take his seat on the throne. That's the issue I am asking about. I am not assuming that the story is true and actually am fairly certain it's complete bullshit. How do I know that? Again I don't mean to get distracted (which I know will inevitably occur once I mention it) but Thebulis is not a proper name. It means 'abomination' in Hebrew. I don't care whether or not Josephus the Jewish historian mentions it as a proper name. The person identified by Josephus the Jew was clearly supposed to be an abomination (i.e. his son sold the holy vessels to Titus). But leaving all this aside (I only mentions it because 'historicity' gets in the way of possibly explaining what the author has in mind. The question is again - how can Hegesippus/Josephus portray Symeon as being the next bishop after James, in fact James's successor and then mentions no less than three times that he died under Trajan perhaps two generations later? In other words, what does he have in mind regarding the role of bishop, how it worked? Clearly we are used to think of a bishop sitting in a throne forever or at least until he dies. Not the case apparently with Hegesippus/Josephus's presentation of bishops in the Jerusalem church.

Your second question -
What is the difference between a circumcised bishop of Jerusalem and say a gentile bishop from Rome?
It is very apparent that a closed council of 12 in Jerusalem does not leave any room for bishops from other places. Twelve is an important number. It is a closed number (i.e. no more than 12, no less than 12). The Gentile bishops of Jerusalem conceivably were part of a 'worldwide tradition' centered perhaps somewhere else. But the 12 Jerusalem bishops can't be part of a worldwide church with other bishops who are equal to there bishop(s) right?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: How Could Symeon be James the Just's Successor on the Episcopal Throne of Jerusalem if He was Crucified Under Trajan

Post by Secret Alias »

Another interesting point to consider. Cleopas appears in Luke 24:13-27 as one of two disciples walking from Jerusalem to Emmaus. But Emmaus was intimately associated with Julius Africanus who is intimately tied to the place. Odd for a place 'added to" the story of Jesus long after the gospel was established (Luke is a very, very late gospel). After military service under Septimius Severus Africanus became the prefect, τοπάρχης, of Emmaus (Nicopolis) one of the ten subdivisions of Palestine, and was sent on a mission to Elagabalus to plead the interests of his city. It seems probable that his visit to Rome was followed by the appointment to the librarianship of the Pantheon. I find it difficult to resist connecting Emmaus's appearance in the gospel and Africanus's role in getting a κώμη recognition by Elagabalus is among the most curious things in Biblical archaeology IMHO.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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John T
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Re: How Could Symeon be James the Just's Successor on the Episcopal Throne of Jerusalem if He was Crucified Under Trajan

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Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:37 am A couple of things you aren't getting I think:

1. Symeon's death is EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY mentioned as occurring in a specific year with Symeon clearly at an old enough age to make the reference to him being a 'bishop' of Jerusalem at least mathematically plausible. From Eusebius:
If you correct the math you have more than plausibility you have some certainty.

I read Eusebius differently in that he writes that Hegesipuus writes that some heretics reported the following account. "...some [heretics] reported Simeon the son of Cleophas, as a descendant of David, and a Christian; and thus he suffered as a martyr, when he was an hundred and twenty years old, in the reign of the emperor Trajan, and the presidency of the consular Atticus". ...Ecclesiastical History, Book 3 Chapter 32.

That is not to say Simeon was really 120 years but reportedly 120 years.

James Tabor did the math and has Simeon at nearly 100 years old. What Tabor would also have you understand by the list is that it proves with some certainty... "the royal family of Jesus, including the children and grandchildren of his brothers and sisters, were honored by the early Christians well into the 2nd century A.D.,"..pg 292 The Jesus Dynasty.

John T
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Re: How Could Symeon be James the Just's Successor on the Episcopal Throne of Jerusalem if He was Crucified Under Trajan

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I don't think you are getting the point. How long do you think a bishop of Jerusalem held his office?

1. James, who was martyred in Jerusalem by beating with a cudgel. [He lived] until the time of Nero.
2. Symeon, was crucified under Trajan.
3. Judah
4. Zachariah
5. Tobiah
6. Benjamin
7. John, bringing us to the ninth [or] tenth year of Trajan (98, 99 CE)
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: How Could Symeon be James the Just's Successor on the Episcopal Throne of Jerusalem if He was Crucified Under Trajan

Post by MrMacSon »

Moses was said to have lived to the age of 120 yrs as were others of the time of or shortly before this Simeon; Hillel and Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai.

Peter Kirby has noted, in an essay about Hegesippus and Eusebius's accounts of H, that Eusebius states
"..Symeon, at 120 years of agex, and being a cousin of Jesus, can be assumed to have known Jesus. The implication of the source being paraphrased here is that the crucifixion of Symeon ends the apostolic generation (at the latest extremity of Trajan’s reign, 115-117 AD). This is a contrast to the prevailing contemporary assumption that “the beloved disciple” of John’s Gospel was the last of that troop. After Symeon dies, so the source says, trouble began because none of the apostles were still living."

http://peterkirby.com/chasing-hegesippus.html
  • x Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 3.32.5-6: 'He writes as follows: “They came, therefore, and took the lead of every church as witnesses and as relatives of the Lord. And profound peace being established in every church, they remained until the reign of the Emperor Trajan, and until the above-mentioned Symeon, son of Clopas, an uncle of the Lord, was informed against by the heretics, and was himself in like manner accused for the same cause before the governor Atticus. And after being tortured for many days he suffered martyrdom, and all, including even the proconsul, marvelled that, at the age of one hundred and twenty years, he could endure so much. And orders were given that he should be crucified”.'

    E.H. 3.32.7-8. In addition to these things the same man, while recounting the events of that period, records that the Church up to that time had remained a pure and uncorrupted virgin, since, if there were any that attempted to corrupt the sound norm of the preaching of salvation, they lay until then concealed in obscure darkness. But when the sacred college of apostles had suffered death in various forms, and the generation of those that had been deemed worthy to hear the inspired wisdom with their own ears had passed away, then the league of godless error took its rise as a result of the folly of heretical teachers, who, because none of the apostles was still living, attempted henceforth, with a bold face, to proclaim, in opposition to the preaching of the truth, the ‘knowledge which is falsely so-called.’
nb. The “sacred college of apostles” and “generation … deemed worthy to hear the inspired wisdom” [in E.H. 3.32.7-8] are parallel phrases.


Previously, Peter K noted -
The “relatives of the Lord,” as also attested by Julius Africanus, play a leadership role in the period after 70 AD and, according to this source, up to approximately 115 AD. They are leaders and witnesses whose presence was felt until the end of Trajan’s reign. The picture here is that of Symeon leading the churches up to the end of Trajan’s reign, with several leaders under him in many locations whose primary qualification is that they are descended from Judas, one of the “so-called brothers of the Saviour.” I’m glossing this outside the quote only because it’s very easy to read this account, quite startling in fact when we consider how marginal the family of Jesus is in the New Testament Gospels, and then forget about it and go on to other things in the literature of early Christianity.

Peter also noted -
..the last account of Hegesippus from Eusebius, which shows that Hegesippus knew a 'Gospel of the Hebrews', that Hegesippus drew on unwritten traditions of the Jews, and that Hegesippus records that some heretics composed false books in his own time.
  • Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 4.22.7-8. And he wrote of many other matters, which we have in part already mentioned, introducing the accounts in their appropriate places. And from the Syriac Gospel according to the Hebrews he quotes some passages in the Hebrew tongue, showing that he was a convert from the Hebrews, and he mentions other matters as taken from the unwritten tradition of the Jews. And not only he, but also Irenæus and the whole company of the ancients, called the Proverbs of Solomon All-virtuous Wisdom. And when speaking of the books called Apocrypha, he records that some of them were composed in his day by certain heretics. But let us now pass on to another.

It's worth noting at least one of the Gamaliels of the same period - descendants of Hillel - was called Simeon ...

.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Could Symeon be James the Just's Successor on the Episcopal Throne of Jerusalem if He was Crucified Under Trajan

Post by Secret Alias »

Right but let's just stick to the point that John T doesn't seem to get - how long does he think bishops of Jerusalem sat on their throne? If it was a lifetime appointment it is difficult to reconcile the testimony of Hegesippus with anything resembling reality.
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Re: How Could Symeon be James the Just's Successor on the Episcopal Throne of Jerusalem if He was Crucified Under Trajan

Post by MrMacSon »

Sure, but note what Peter K noted -
The “relatives of the Lord,” as also attested by Julius Africanus, play a leadership role in the period after 70 AD and, according to this source, up to approximately 115 AD. They are leaders and witnesses whose presence was felt until the end of Trajan’s reign. The picture here is that of Symeon leading the churches up to the end of Trajan’s reign, with several leaders under him in many locations whose primary qualification is that they are descended from Judas, one of the “so-called brothers of the Saviour.” I’m glossing this outside the quote only because it’s very easy to read this account, quite startling in fact when we consider how marginal the family of Jesus is in the New Testament Gospels ...

eta: and that Eusebius asserted that Hegesippus drew on 'unwritten traditions of the Jews' (E.H. 4.22.7-8)
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Re: How Could Symeon be James the Just's Successor on the Episcopal Throne of Jerusalem if He was Crucified Under Trajan

Post by Secret Alias »

Why do you have this habit of citing third hand opinion over the sources themselves. This is someone (Peter Kirby someone whom we happen to know) who is 'making sense' of the evidence. But it isn't necessarily the right answer or even likely to be the right answer. It glosses over the fact that the list of Jerusalem bishops comes from the same person (at least theoretically) who cited the Roman list. Our assumption would naturally be, based on the Roman list that the Jerusalem list is a series of bishops who occupy their office until they die. But clearly this assumption is disproved by the fact that Symeon does not die. From that the inference is made (or the supposition perhaps better) that Symeon was the leader. But nothing in the list suggests this. So the question again is:

1. why should we assume that the list of Jerusalem bishops is different someone from the Roman list which we assume is a succession of leaders of Rome who occupy their position until they die?
2. where does it say in Hegesippus that Symeon had a higher status than the other people on the list?
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Re: How Could Symeon be James the Just's Successor on the Episcopal Throne of Jerusalem if He was Crucified Under Trajan

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Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:55 am Why do you have this habit of citing third hand opinion over the sources themselves.
b/c it refers to and potentially ties in a number of people you have addressed recently, albeit elsewhere, such as Julius Africanus, as well as people of the early tannaic period. Of course it might be useless information to you.

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:55 am Our assumption would naturally be, based on the Roman list that the Jerusalem list is a series of bishops who occupy their office until they die. But clearly this assumption is disproved by the fact that Symeon does not die.
"Symeon does not die" b/c he was crucified? Crucifixion is death (later resurrection notwithstanding).
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